Bernie- Thanks for the offer. Yes, I would very much like to have the photo. I'm going to try to put together something over the holidays for a "Florida winter" presentation. Thanks for your help. Jack
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bernie Baymiller Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 4:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ShopTalk: What is it worth? Jack, I think Tom's right about that talk. You'd get a good turnout in our retirement community. The financial businesses do it all the time...biggies like Schwab have seminars in our Yacht Club facility (lots of different size rooms for groups), and the independents sometimes have mini-tournaments for groups. Most are well attended. With a little publicity in the community newspaper and on the restaurant bulletin boards, you'd probably get a "packed house." There are just no pro clubmakers here who seem to know or do much beyond the basics...particularly in fitting. If you want an ultra high speed photo of ball at impact, I can send you one taken by Edgerton in 1938 or so, with 8 pics taken in .0004 sec. of the impact with a Dot 100 compression balata ball. Dad used to use this in his talks to community groups, so there's a nice write-up with it that explains what is going on...as well as the specifics on ball diameter at each point. It's interesting that as the ball leaves the face, it rebounds to more than it's original dfiameter. I have this and others scanned and on CD...easy to send as attachments, but not small files, so might have to send one or two at a time. Also have a lot of Bobby Jones high speed pics as well as circle graphs showing his and Jimmy Thompson's (longest hitting pro of that day) acceleration and clubhead velocity. Man, I wish I had Bobby Jones' swing...it is almost perfect in the strobe sequences. He just went a little too far over parallel on top. Bernie Writeto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "tom wishon " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:42 PM Subject: RE: ShopTalk: What is it worth? > JACK: > sorry to butt in, but I hear what you say about the competition from low > price assemblers in a retirement area where everyone wants to save. > Have you considered putting together a little 20 min talk on what > happens when club strikes the ball or on the precise fitting needs of > senior players and then do a presentation at one of the community's > gatherings. I have been told that retirement communities are always > looking for activities and if you could schedule one for golfers at > which you ONLY educate (NO SELL!!) by telling them "gee whiz" things > about golf clubs, you might start to turn the tide by planting that seed > in their heads that says, "wow, Jack knows stuff about golf clubs I > never knew or heard about". And from there it starts. > > Best things I can tell you to put in your talk would be the basics from > Cochran & Stobbs book, the Search for the Perfect Swing in which they > talk about what happens at the split second of impact when DRIVER hits > ball - you know things like ball on the face for 5 ten thousandths of a > second, ball coming off the face with 2000 rpms of backspin, ball being > squashed 15-20% of its diameter, etc. things like that. > > If you wanted to try this and needed some more specific help, I'd be > glad to steer you in the right direction. > > Tom W > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > On Behalf Of Jack Stiehl > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 11:48 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: ShopTalk: What is it worth? > > Bernie- > I'm in the opposite boat. As the only PCS "A" clubmaker in the > retirement > area I live in (and the surrounding area), I am having a tough time > competing against the "non-profit" clubmakers in the area. I won't > imply > that they are "cut & gluers", but they do not take the time and effort > that > I do to custom fit a person with the right head and shaft, let alone > frequency match,spine align, loft & lie, etc. I feel that if clubmakers > charged the extra $$ that they are worth, we would have a much better > reputation vs the OEMs that have all the advertising dollars. I feel > that > part of our lack of accreditation (?) vs the OEMs is that people feel > they > can get a club for the catalog cost of components without considering > our > costs in skills and time. > > Just my $.02 worth after a very frusting day on the course!!! > > Jack > Jack's Custom Golf > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bernie Baymiller > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 7:53 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: ShopTalk: What is it worth? > > > Sean, > > First, you're forgetting that I don't go actively searching for > business. > Thus, I don't have enough volume to cut into anybody's act, particularly > that of a good clubmaker. (Incidentally, I'm one of three hobbyist > clubmakers who are pretty good in our golfing community...and heaven > knows > how many C&G guys.) A good cluffitter generally has better equipment to > fit > than I do, including computer analysis systems, etc. I have to do my > "fitting" by knowing my customer's game and swing faults, how far they > will > go to overcome them, what works for them and what doesn't, as well as > observing what they do with demos. I wouldn't call that a professional > fitting by today's standards, but if I'm consciencious about it, the > results > are pretty good. > > Another question: What is a legit market? I'm legit. I offer someone a > choice...they can either go to a top notch fitter (not any around our > area > that I'd go to) and pay for a really thorough job of fitting...or come > to me > for less money if they are satisfied with the more limited job I will > do. > Sometimes, near enough is good enough. As I said before, I don't want > anything to do with OEM clubs...don't ever sell any, almost never repair > any > (well, do regrips and stuff like that), so I don't cut into the pro's > business much at all. Maybe I take a few driver sales away from him, but > chances are, if these customers came to me, they wouldn't have been > satisfied with the pro's offerings, anyway. He doesn't sell any long > drivers, or ultra light ones specially made for an 80 year-old or a > slow-swinging lady. > > Finally, I don't put a low value on my services, nor do I think my > customers > do. I put a low price on my services... because I don't want to make a > profit and deal with the day-in, day-out hassle of running a business. > Anything unconstitutional about that? > > So, my answer to your last question is, no. If someone is satisfied with > a > hobbyist's work, why should they pay pro prices? I build clubs for my > friends, generally not for anyone who walks in off the street. And, I > only > have a responsibility to my customer, certainly not to any any other > "competitor." As far as I know, this is still America, where > competition, in > or out of the country, sets the pricing. The golf component business and > textile business are pretty good examples of that. > > Speaking of competition: I watch the activity on several golf forums and > see > golfers have a really fast growing interest in building their own clubs. > GS > is probably right to emphasize this market above other markets. It could > be > huge in a few years...much larger than the OEM market in a decade or > two...if the OEMs don't get their act together. Sooner or later, the > hype, > high cost and failure to deliver promised performance, will come back to > haunt the OEMs. I've seen it happen too many businesses, and even > industries, in my career. However, there will always be a majority of > golfers who don't want to bother with building their own clubs...as the > baby > boomer, status conscious generation fades away, and as Tom Wishon has > suggested, there should be a huge opportunity for the professional > clubmaker. IMO. Wish I was younger again. > > Bernie > Writeto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sean weijand" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Shop-Talk Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 3:42 AM > Subject: ShopTalk: What is it worth? > > > > Unfortunately I'm not in the club making business but i do have an > > intense interest in golf and golf clubs. I have noticed the last few > > threads reading the statement that "I only charge $5.00-$10.00-.$15.00 > > per club. > > > > I paid (for my wife 11 'cap) well over that for her clubs (John > > Letters on SK fiber shafts). This was a PCS "A" Fitter (Bruce Chambers > > Vancouver B.C. Canada). We were looking for the best possible fit for > > her game. We could have gone OEM but there wouldn't have been a price > > advantage. Nor would their have been a quality / professional > advantage. > > > > It strikes me that we must be the exception as standard customers from > > the responses i've read. Does leaving so much "on the table" make any > > sense? > > > > Despite enjoying Bernie's input and his obvious vast knowledge on > > clubmaking (I would gladly pay your green fee Bernie if you ever come > > to vancouver just to pick your brain for four hours) i question the > low > > value he places on his services. > > > > If a hobbyist such as Bernie, who is an extremely well informed > > hobbyist, price themselves so far below the market because they are > > making "friends" or "just helping out the guys at the club" is biting > > into the "legit" market and forcing guys such as Dr Voo into selling > > bogus knockoffs to stay in business because the customers who are > > interested in a quality fitting / relationship with a club-maker are > > getting it from cheap knowledgeable "hobbyists" should they not > > re-visit their pricing structure. (boy that was one long sentence). > > > > If the OEM's have demonstrated there is a price point for some > > perceived performance I wonder why a professional clubmaker who is > > selling performance would create a situation where the pricing levels > > are expected to be considerably below the going rate. > > > > Being a contractor in the refrigeration business i guess i am used to > > always making an effort to drive the street level pricing higher. The > > only way we are able to do that is to offer more that the guy in a > > truck. To me that is what a clubmaker offers me. i can get the "guy > in > > a truck" in a set of off the rack taylor made's. > > > > so after all this rambling the question I am looking for an answer to > > (in this slow golf season of winter) is do hobbyists have a > > responsibility to price their product to a level at least approaching > > that of a full-time clubmaker? > > > > > > I don't mean to make disparaging remarks about Mr Baymiller or Mr > > Voorhies I just use them as examples. (perhaps the cost of posting, > (we > > get know who you are)). > > > > > > tks sean > > > > > > > > > > >
