|
RK
Lloyd, I do not know how I got this post from you as I have you an my ignore list but I have and can safely say that after a full year of not reading your crap that you are still full of crap. Since it's called "LOW CARBON", 1008 to 1010, means that it does not contain very much carbon, about 8 to no more than 10% but high carbon refers to any and all steels with at least 35% carbon . And since shafting steel is a very high carbon appox 40%, plus it also contains more alloy than the lower carbon, making a high alloy low carbon is like dating your sister, and you SHOULD know how that feels Lloyd. Hence the shafting steel has a number of 4140, high allow high carbon flame hardable which is one of the main reasons that you see the chrome peel on older steel shafts, very hard to get chrome to adhere to harden steel w/out a copper base. AND since steel shafts are flame hardened that sure WILL change the modulus of the two.
Lloyd if your going to make statements at the very least you can do is GET YOUR INFOMATION RIGHT. Now I must go into my computer and find out just how your post got past my message rules. SO far so good as to Dr. David T. still nothing directly to me from him
ALL, the easiest way to check out on just how much carbon is in the steel, grind some of it on your bench grinder. If the sparkles are a lot and stay near the grinding wheel it has a very high carbon, but if the sparkles are quite a bit away form the grinding wheel or no sparks are noticeable then you have a very low carbon steel. The more sparks close to the source = high carbon, the more there is and or just how far they go into the air, were as the least amount of sparks that there is and how far away they were from the source = low carbon. I used to have a guy that worked for me that could tell you w/in 5% just how much carbon plus how much alloy was present in the material.
KENNEDY
golf equipment
manufacturer's of world class golfclub repair equipment
-------Original Message-------
Date: Monday, October 13, 2003 2:48:59 PM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Residual Bend N plane - Steel Shafts
The modulus of elasticity for the low carbon steel and higher carbon steel is basically the same. It is the yield stress that is significantly different and would have no affect on frequency differences. The only thing left is out of round and a material thickness difference at the weld that would affect frequency at different positions around the shaft.
llhack
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Kennedy
Sent: 10/13/03 9:34:11 AM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Residual Bend N plane - Steel Shafts
Tom / All, As being a retired Manufacturing Engineer from Ford Motor and having seen the "BUTT" welding process that you are talking about I would like to add my $0.02 worth into the mix. Yes as you have stated that during the "BUTT" welding process there is no way that any foreign particle (s) can get into the mix so to say, being that it is preformed in a positive atmosphere chamber, low OX. However although nothing can be added into the mix a very important item is reduced during the process, which can not be reintroduced back into the steel "CARBON". As to it's bending and having "HARD" areas it was explained to me by the Bunding Tubing ME's, which by the way supplied several shaft companies, not TT however, their predrawn material in 20' lengths, is what causes the tubing to be soft in the area of the "BUTT" weld and for approx. 15% to either side of the welded material. I was told that since most of the carbon, approx. 95%. is depleted during the welding pr!
ocess this area is of great concern to both Bunding Tubing and it's customers, It should be noted that the entire automotive industry plus others is not effected by this mainly because the material that is used by the auto industry is made from a very low carbon steel.. It should also be noted that since the tubing used for shaft manufacturing is of a "Heat Treatable" type (grade) of steel, very high carbon, it also contains about 10 to 15% high carbon scrap, such as ball bearings, dowel pins, etc, etc, it is because of this that steel shafts have more than one hard side or soft side If the scrap is of very high quality or the furnace is not brought up to full heat, 2750* to 2950* this happens quite often, I was told by the ME's at the Ford steel plant, during start ups after long down periods such as long weekends, holidays.
As i stated up front it's just my view on the subject.
RK
KENNEDY
golf equipment
manufacturer's of world class golfclub repair equipment
-------Original Message-------
Date: Monday, October 13, 2003 11:03:41 AM
Subject: RE: ShopTalk: Residual Bend N plane - Steel Shafts
Dave et al:
I''ll throw my 2 cents worth in on this and offer the premise that what
you are seeing in the difference of the steel shafts vs graphite is
explained by the two different manufacturing processes. Steel shafts
are almost all made from steel sheet material that is coiled and high
frequency welded into the tube from which the shafts are then drawn and
step tapered. The sheet is very precise for thickness and mechanical
properties. Very few steel shafts are now made from piercing billets
and drawing a seamless tube since Apollo is gone. The "welding" is
really a high frequency fusing process that melts the coiled steel plate
to itself, hence no 'foreign material' is introduced to the tube and the
tube remain homogenous. The fuse line is skived very precisely so that
after heat treatment and drawing, even x-ray checking has a very
difficult time identifying the fusing line. Thus to see only a 3cpm
difference circumferentially is very likely.
TOM W
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 6:58 AM
Subject: Re: ShopTalk: Residual Bend N plane - Steel Shafts
> Now I have to pick up a freqency meter and re-align all the shafts
in my
> clubs. All my steel shafted clubs are aligned according to the
residual
> bend detected by my spine finder, it's probably as good as random
> alignment.
>
> Doh! ;-)
To which Harry Schiestel replied...
At 03:38 AM 10/12/03 +0000, golf54com wrote:
>Without the expensive equipment, we may need to FLO steel shafts to
>ensure we get the true plane. I was hoping this wasn't necessary,
>as I find FLOing steel shafts to be so bloody time consuming, sigh.
>
>I watch tour players execute near flawless shots, and that of my son
>hitting 5 iron shots to a tight circle. Why then is that possible,
>given our current alignment methods and flawed assembly techniques
>(lacks precision)? Could many steel shafts (Apollo excluded from my
>experience) demonstrate good FLO on the residual bend N plane?
That's certainly one possible hypothesis. Here are all I could think of,
and there are probably more:
(1) Most steel shafts happen to demonstrate FLO on the residual bend
plane
(as you suggest). This isn't as crazy as it seems. It is possible that
the
same manufacturing (process) flaws produce bend and spine, meaning that
the
two would be correlated.
(2) What really matters to performance is the combined bend an spine (as
Dan Neubecker has suggested; I don't believe this but can't dismiss it
out
of hand, since there is no real evidence pro or con).
(3) Steel shafts seldom have a lot of spine -- typically less than 3cpm.
That small a spine may make no discernable performance difference, so
any
alignment would have worked as well with those shafts. (This is my
favorite
hypothesis of the three.)
As I said, there are probably more hypotheses. Harry, you're a test
expert.
How would we design a test to find the proper one? Oh yeah. There's also
the human factor, as you note yourself...
>Dave, maybe your clubs with steel shafts exhibit little residual
>bend and are superior to just random orientation. If you believe
>now that your clubs are all wrong, then after your next few rounds,
>let us know if your score balloons ... ha, ha.
If the tests are golfer tests rather than human tests, then "ha ha"
becomes
a very serious test parameter.
Cheers!
DaveT
| 