I thought your one sentence answer was kind of funny as normally you
are more voluble than that. :-)
That being said, There are always ways to pick apart any study- but I
thought the most important part is to look at the parameters of the
study, see how it was conducted, and what results are being reported.
If one wanted to check the lab accuracy, it is only necessary to ask
them the error parameters of the routines in question- if they still
remember how it was done. Every single study I had to do, also had to
have an error rating at the end of it- (plus or minus this many data
points, is that statistically significant, or not?).
I thought maybe his reason for doing it under silver loading conditions
was to test a more worst case scenario- as one who had been taking
small amounts of eis would be eliminating it all along and might not
have enough to measure? Besides, if a person has a fairly normal metal
elimination process (and that might be a good assumption for most
people) argyria ought not to be a concern unless using large amounts of
it.
Interesting point you make about silver chloride remaining intact in
the bloodstream- I did not infer that from any part of the report- and
do not see where you get it directly.
I still do not agree with you and Marshall about the silver chloride -
sure, it is reasonable to assume that SOME of the eis will bond that
way, but certainly one cannot make the case that hydrochloric acid is
the only mechanism for digestion in the stomach- there are many other
complex chemical interactions that surely occur in that stew- there are
enzymes, proteins, etc etc. Just swishing eis around in the mouth
probably binds it to many different compounds in the saliva.
It looks to me that he was measuring how silver gets excreted in his
body, under normal conditions. I like it, it seems a very valuable
study to me. If it differs from other studies, than examining each one
for how the person got argyria in the first place seems important to
me- like, a laboratory accident with powdered silver (ie at kodak), or
using Rx silver nitrate, or silver chloride, or making eis with tap
water. Also using a chelator to remove metals is not the same as what
he looked at. Just thinking here.
Kathryn
On Jul 27, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Norton, Steve wrote:
Ok, I was on a blackberry last night but today I can type. I do wish
that a test to confirm the accuracy of the lab measurements had been
made. You can make errors measuring silver in a complex solution. I
have come across a study and two patents addressing just that issue. I
also regret that a daily measurement wasn't taken under non
silver-loaded conditions and that the first day of the primary test
was not measured. But that is water over the dam.
It is also true that there are studies that included silver chloride
dosing but none mention increased silver excretion much less increased
silver excretion in the urine.
However, putting all that aside and looking at the data gives some
interesting results. As I said previously, all the test data on silver
excretion I have seen shows that the primary excretion route is by the
liver (>99%). In the Altman test, urine is the primary route of
excretion. In the 24 hr silver balance test the ratio was 73% in the
urine and 27% in the feces. In the primary test on day 5, the first
measurement made, it was 92.5% in the urine and 7.5% in the feces.
Clearly something is different from the reported studies.
It has been mentioned that it has not been proven that silver ions
combine with HCl in the stomach to form silver chloride. To me that
would appear to be more of a technicality. It has been shown that
combining silver ions with HCl in in a test tube forms silver
chloride. It STRONGLY suggests that it will do the same in the
stomach. I do agree that some and perhaps a large number of silver
ions will enter the body through mucus membranes and not be converted
to silver chloride.
And if you look at the data, the silver excreted through the urine
closely approximates the ionic content of the EIS. Perhaps this is not
surprising. It has been shown that EDTA is processes out through the
urine regardless of what metal it has bonded with. And the kidney is
responsible for eliminating excess salt from the bloodstream. So it
would appear that the chloride ion in the silver chloride is causing
the liver to ignore the silver chloride and the kidney to eliminate it
as excess salt.
The most striking part of the test data is that it indicates that
silver chloride remains unchanged in the blood. It enters the
bloodstream as silver chloride and lit leaves the bloodstream as
silver chloride. I have not seen any qualitative data for the
antimicrobial effectiveness of silver chloride but I have read that it
is poor.
I had read that Frank Keys believes that only the silver particles in
EIS has any effect in vivo. I always though that his belief was simply
based on the low solubility of silver chloride in water but perhaps
this study is the basis of that belief. It would certainly seem to
support that assertion, in my opinion.
As you can tell, this is somewhat speculative. Counter and alternative
ideas are welcome.
About agryria, studies indicate that less than 1% of silver in the
bloodstream is deposited in the tissues. The accuracy of the test is
not sufficient to detremine if all silver was excreted. One percent
could easily be missed. Additionally, silver chloride is one of the
compounds that has been found in the cells of argyria patients. I
don't think the test proves that EIS cannot cause or contribute to
argryia.
- Steve N
From: Norton, Steve [mailto:stephen.nor...@ngc.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 11:38 PM
To: silver-list@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: CS>FW: Colliodal Silver
You are right. I retract my statement
. - Steve N
----- Original Message -----
From: Clayton Family <clay...@skypoint.com>
To: silver-list@eskimo.com <silver-list@eskimo.com>
Sent: Sun Jul 26 20:46:39 2009
Subject: Re: CS>FW: Colliodal Silver
I am not sure that one can compare silver chloride with ionic silver.
If one adds salt to ionic silver, it does seems to cause argyria. There
have been reports of this. Assuming that the EIS changes to silver
chloride in the stomach is an assumption, pretty much impossible to
prove either way. I am not sure it is that simple or everyone using
eis might be getting argyria.
I think this study has a lot of value. Why on earth would you assume
the Lab made an error? I think that the prior assumption is what is
questionable. The body has very complicated biochemistry.
Kathryn
On Jul 26, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Norton, Steve wrote:
> I am skeptical of the study because it is contrary to every other
> study of silver that I have seen. I know some will say that EIS is
> different than any other type of silver studied but what must be the
> majority of EIS ingested is ingested as silver chloride after
> conversion in the stomach. And some studies have used silver chloride
> with different results. Some issues:
>
> *The daily excretion rate
> *Primary excretion via urine vs feces
> *The assumption the all silver is eventually excreted with no basis
> for the claim
> *The percent of ingested silver that that enters the bloodstream
>
> Too bad some test data on single daily dose in a non silver-loaded
> condition is not provided along with a
> single daily dose in a non silver-loaded condition of a non EIS form
> of silver as a control sample.
>
> There are some other items that give concern. Bit given what is
> provided I would have to believe that the measurement of silver by
> Kimball Labs must be faulty.
>
> - Steve N
>
> From: Laura Zolman <laurazol...@hotmail.com>
> To: silver colloidal <silver-list@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Sun Jul 26 06:33:08 2009
> Subject: CS>FW: Colliodal Silver
>
> Anyone checked this out before...and if yes, what is your opinion.
>
> http://www.silvermedicine.org/AltmanStudy.pdf
>
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