----- Original Message ----- From: add automation <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, 12 December 1999 15:03 Subject: CS>LONG: Some Notes and a Few Questions on CS
> December 11, 1999 > > To All, > > I have been searching the CS archives, and I must say this group is > an extraordinary collection of knowledgeable individuals. Hopefully, > someone can help answer a few questions on CS. > > As a newcomer, I should introduce myself. > > My name is Mike Monett, and I design instrumentation and automated > test equipment for high-volume production of hard disk drives. I am > fortunate to have been awarded 6 patents, some of which were > breakthroughs in the technology that allowed the disk industry to > advance. <applause goes here!> Pleased to meet you Mike, I must say this is an excelent first up message, shall try to answer as much as I can. > I have very little knowledge of chemistry. > > I'm trying to get an understanding of the process of making > colloidal silver and the variables that affect the process. > > My first attempts did not come out the way I expected, so I began > monitoring the current. I have some interesting GIF's that I will > discuss later. > > I found the electrode spacing has a large effect on the results, so > I cut the handle off a Colgate toothbrush and drilled a series of > 1/16" holes along the handle. > > The core of the handle is soft, and grips the 14 ga. silver so I can > adjust the spacing and immersion depth. I am currently using a > spacing of 1 1/8". My beaker is approximately 2 1/2" in diameter and > 5 1/4" tall. > > The silver electrodes are immersed in plain distilled water at room > temperature, and the length of the black area on the cathode > measures about 3 1/4" after a run. You might like to try a squater container and give more width between your electrodes. > I refer to Peter Lindemann's article "A Closer Look At Colloidal > Silver", available at various places on the web. One place is: > > http://www.sota-inc.com/csinfo.htm > > Peter recommends using 30 volts to keep the electrodes clean, but I > use 18 volts to slow the process so I can see what is going on and > make notes. > > I generally stop the process at 2500 to 3000 microamps, when black > fingers start forming on the cathode and fall into the solution. > > Here are the relevant equations from my very rusty high school > chemistry (please make corrections wherever needed!) > > At the Anode: > > Ag + e(-) ---> Ag(+)(aq) > > At the Cathode: > > Ag(+)(aq) + e(-) ---> Ag > > Also, hydrogen bubbles can form at the cathode: > > 4e(-) + 4 H(+)(aq) ---> 2H2(g) > > First Question > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > The current starts at about 200 to 300 microamps, then rises > exponentially. Bubbles start forming at different currents - > sometimes 700 ua, sometimes never. > > At about 1250 ua, a brown mist starts leaving the cathode. I assume > these are neutral silver atoms, because they do not move under the > influence of the electric field between the electrodes. > > Peter confirms this in the section starting at "The Best Is Yet To > Come". He states: > > "These particles will hang in the water at the level they are > produced, and for the most part, will not fall to the bottom of > the glass. This is what a "colloidal" preparation of silver looks > like." > > My question is: Why does this mist occur, and why does the silver > stream away from the cathode in this manner? Well first thing is, are the the mists coming from the cathode (negative electrode) or the anode (positive). If they are coming from the cathode then it is likely that they are composed of reduced silver ions, eg neutral maetallic particles. However, most of the silver ions that contact the cathode remain there, loosely attached as dendrites or 'sludge' unless disturbed in some way. If the clouds are coming from the anode, then they are ag+ ions or particles making their to the cathode, all be it slowly and subject to the thermal currents in the water. The fact that this occurs at 1.25 mA is not surprising, and the current will probably run away from this point or lower, making the process hard to control and the final product may not have good shelf life. I would tend to limit the current at about 1 mA in a system of this configuration. > What is the force that applies the mechanical push to the atoms? Being positvely charged they are attracted by the negative cathode. > > Second Question > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > A couple of paragraphs further down, beginning at "The Brown Glass > Bottle", Peter states > > "Once you have gone to the trouble of making colloidal silver > particles as small as .001 microns, it is important to protect > them. The particles stay away from each other in suspension > because they each have a positive electrical charge (+) and these > "like charges" repel each other." > > If these are the particles Peter refers to immediately above, why do > they now suddenly have a charge? How did they get ionized? I believe you are misreading Peters article, he does not refer to particles eminating from the cathode. > If they are now positive ions, should they not stream directly to > the cathode instead of drifting aimlessly around? See above, and remember that high speed for a particle of 1 nm radius is very slow in our terms. > It seems there are two types of silver in the solution: silver ions > which we cannot see, and neutral silver atoms which form the mist. This is not normally the case. Most of us strive to limit the inclusion of metallic silver in our solutions, as these generally have a large particle size and shorten shelf life. > The ions provide the increased electrical conductivity, and the > neutral atoms are the colloid we are after. No, the ions form the colloid we are after. > My question: Is this interpretation correct? > > Third Question > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > What is the effect of colloidal silver on the body? Which component > is the active one? > > Are the silver ions the active component, or the silver atoms, or > both? The silver ions. To be able to react the silver must be ionic, unless you include catalytic reactions, but even then to be a catalyst in the right place it should first have been ionic and then reduced at the site of interest. > Fourth Question > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Peter recommends against using salt to speed up the process. He > states this produces silver chloride, which is undesirable. > > In fact, I test for silver ions by pouring an inch of liquid into a > small glass and adding a few grains of salt. > > In a few minutes, a beautiful pale blue/white dispersion forms. When > I put the glass in direct sunlight, the color changes from pale blue > to a pale gray. > > When I repeat the same tests using plain distilled water, there is > no change. > > Here are the relevant equations: > > From the dissociation of salt in water: > > NaCl(s) + H2O ---> Na(+)(aq) + Cl(-)(aq) > > A silver ion reacts with a chlorine ion to form silver chloride: > > Ag(+)(aq) + Cl(-)(aq) ---> AgCl(s) > > The silver chloride is insoluble in water and precipitates out as a > white solid. AgCl is soluble to a small concentration. > Silver chloride turns black when exposed to light: > > 2Ag(+)Cl(-) + light ---> 2Ag + Cl[2](g) > > So, I conclude the salt test shows the presence of silver ions. I > think adding ammonia would dissolve the silver chloride, but I > haven't tried that experiment yet. > > But everyone seems to agree using salt to make collodal silver is a > bad idea - it makes silver chloride. But nobody takes the next step > to balance the chemical equation. > > What happens to the sodium ion? > > The equation for adding metallic sodium to water is: > > 2 Na(s) + 2 H2O ---> 2 NaOH(aq) + H2(g) > > As far as I can determine, the displaced sodium ion reacts with > water to form sodium hydroxide. The sodium is already oxidised, and further oxidation requires more energy. It may combine with the extremely small number hydroxile ions in water. Apart from that it remains a spectator ion. > The household name for this is Lye or caustic soda, and is used in > drain, toilet and oven cleaners. This is not something I want > flowing in my veins. Most compounds at the concentration of cautic soda that would some harm you wouldn't want in your body. Besides that NaOH would be neutralised by the HCl content of the stomach. > Now, when we drink colloidal silver, presumably the silver ions > enter our bloodstream. > > But our blood contains 0.9% salt. > > So, as soon as a silver ion enters the bloodstream, it is converted > to silver chloride, and the displaced sodium converts to sodium > hydroxide. > > My queston: Is this really what happens? Is this a good idea? If it does then it does not seem to matter as the cloride is swapped for sulphide to which the siver binds at the cell walls of microbes etc. > Fifth Question: Experimental Results > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I now seem to be able to reproduce the process fairly well. The > first GIF show the typical results - depending on where it starts, > the current rises to 2000 - 2500 ua in about 50 minutes. This is not > the level of control I would like, but it seems to be working. > > I tried monitoring the process when the beaker was placed in a > coffee can with an aluminum foil lid to exclude light. > > My thinking was room light may cause a silver ion to capture an > electron and turn it into a neutral silver atom. This would reduce > the number of ions available to conduct electricity, and slow down > the process. Eliminating light should speed it up. Silver ions are stable in natural light, some silver salts are not. > The second GIF shows the result. Instead of speeding up, the process > slowed down by over a factor of two! Could be an altering of the electrical field, is the solution a capacitor... Could the light provide some thermal energy? > I removed the lid when the current reached 1500 ua, and there was a > sharp rise in the slope of the current. > > My question is: Why does light speed up the process? > > Final GIF > ~~~~~~~~~ > The third GIF shows the current rise during the first 80 minutes. A > polynomial curve fit shows a nice fit to an exponential. The curve > deviates when bubble start to form, as shown in the first GIF. > > Conclusion > ~~~~~~~~~~ > Clearly, making colloidal silver with a fixed voltage is going to be > hard to make reproducible. There are too many variables: electrode > spacing, bubble formation, and initial conductivity of the water. > > Also, an exponential current rise is not an easy function to > control, since a lot of things happen very quickly towards the end > of the process. > > I plan to make a constant-current source with 300 volts of > compliance, and report any interesting results. Definitly the way to go. > Summary > ~~~~~~~ > Sorry this took so much of your time - probably it is very basic to > most of you. > > But it sure would be nice to find the answers to some of these > questions. Thank you for your help! > > Best Regards, > > Michael R. Monett > mailto:[email protected] Pleasure, Ivan A. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to: [email protected] -or- [email protected] with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line. To post, address your message to: [email protected] Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
