Could you repeat the question please?
Andy
To All,
I have been searching the CS archives, and I must say this group is
an extraordinary collection of knowledgeable individuals. Hopefully,
someone can help answer a few questions on CS.
As a newcomer, I should introduce myself.
My name is Mike Monett, and I design instrumentation and automated
test equipment for high-volume production of hard disk drives. I am
fortunate to have been awarded 6 patents, some of which were
breakthroughs in the technology that allowed the disk industry to
advance. <applause goes here!>
I have very little knowledge of chemistry.
I'm trying to get an understanding of the process of making
colloidal silver and the variables that affect the process.
My first attempts did not come out the way I expected, so I began
monitoring the current. I have some interesting GIF's that I will
discuss later.
I found the electrode spacing has a large effect on the results, so
I cut the handle off a Colgate toothbrush and drilled a series of
1/16" holes along the handle.
The core of the handle is soft, and grips the 14 ga. silver so I can
adjust the spacing and immersion depth. I am currently using a
spacing of 1 1/8". My beaker is approximately 2 1/2" in diameter and
5 1/4" tall.
The silver electrodes are immersed in plain distilled water at room
temperature, and the length of the black area on the cathode
measures about 3 1/4" after a run.
I refer to Peter Lindemann's article "A Closer Look At Colloidal
Silver", available at various places on the web. One place is:
http://www.sota-inc.com/csinfo.htm
Peter recommends using 30 volts to keep the electrodes clean, but I
use 18 volts to slow the process so I can see what is going on and
make notes.
I generally stop the process at 2500 to 3000 microamps, when black
fingers start forming on the cathode and fall into the solution.
Here are the relevant equations from my very rusty high school
chemistry (please make corrections wherever needed!)
At the Anode:
Ag + e(-) ---> Ag(+)(aq)
At the Cathode:
Ag(+)(aq) + e(-) ---> Ag
Also, hydrogen bubbles can form at the cathode:
4e(-) + 4 H(+)(aq) ---> 2H2(g)
First Question
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The current starts at about 200 to 300 microamps, then rises
exponentially. Bubbles start forming at different currents -
sometimes 700 ua, sometimes never.
At about 1250 ua, a brown mist starts leaving the cathode. I assume
these are neutral silver atoms, because they do not move under the
influence of the electric field between the electrodes.
Peter confirms this in the section starting at "The Best Is Yet To
Come". He states:
"These particles will hang in the water at the level they are
produced, and for the most part, will not fall to the bottom of
the glass. This is what a "colloidal" preparation of silver looks
like."
My question is: Why does this mist occur, and why does the silver
stream away from the cathode in this manner?
What is the force that applies the mechanical push to the atoms?
Second Question
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A couple of paragraphs further down, beginning at "The Brown Glass
Bottle", Peter states
"Once you have gone to the trouble of making colloidal silver
particles as small as .001 microns, it is important to protect
them. The particles stay away from each other in suspension
because they each have a positive electrical charge (+) and these
"like charges" repel each other."
If these are the particles Peter refers to immediately above, why do
they now suddenly have a charge? How did they get ionized?
If they are now positive ions, should they not stream directly to
the cathode instead of drifting aimlessly around?
It seems there are two types of silver in the solution: silver ions
which we cannot see, and neutral silver atoms which form the mist.
The ions provide the increased electrical conductivity, and the
neutral atoms are the colloid we are after.
My question: Is this interpretation correct?
Third Question
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is the effect of colloidal silver on the body? Which component
is the active one?
Are the silver ions the active component, or the silver atoms, or
both?
Fourth Question
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter recommends against using salt to speed up the process. He
states this produces silver chloride, which is undesirable.
In fact, I test for silver ions by pouring an inch of liquid into a
small glass and adding a few grains of salt.
In a few minutes, a beautiful pale blue/white dispersion forms. When
I put the glass in direct sunlight, the color changes from pale blue
to a pale gray.
When I repeat the same tests using plain distilled water, there is
no change.
Here are the relevant equations:
From the dissociation of salt in water:
NaCl(s) + H2O ---> Na(+)(aq) + Cl(-)(aq)
A silver ion reacts with a chlorine ion to form silver chloride:
Ag(+)(aq) + Cl(-)(aq) ---> AgCl(s)
The silver chloride is insoluble in water and precipitates out as a
white solid.
Silver chloride turns black when exposed to light:
2Ag(+)Cl(-) + light ---> 2Ag + Cl[2](g)
So, I conclude the salt test shows the presence of silver ions. I
think adding ammonia would dissolve the silver chloride, but I
haven't tried that experiment yet.
But everyone seems to agree using salt to make collodal silver is a
bad idea - it makes silver chloride. But nobody takes the next step
to balance the chemical equation.
What happens to the sodium ion?
The equation for adding metallic sodium to water is:
2 Na(s) + 2 H2O ---> 2 NaOH(aq) + H2(g)
As far as I can determine, the displaced sodium ion reacts with
water to form sodium hydroxide.
The household name for this is Lye or caustic soda, and is used in
drain, toilet and oven cleaners. This is not something I want
flowing in my veins.
Now, when we drink colloidal silver, presumably the silver ions
enter our bloodstream.
But our blood contains 0.9% salt.
So, as soon as a silver ion enters the bloodstream, it is converted
to silver chloride, and the displaced sodium converts to sodium
hydroxide.
My queston: Is this really what happens? Is this a good idea?
Fifth Question: Experimental Results
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I now seem to be able to reproduce the process fairly well. The
first GIF show the typical results - depending on where it starts,
the current rises to 2000 - 2500 ua in about 50 minutes. This is not
the level of control I would like, but it seems to be working.
I tried monitoring the process when the beaker was placed in a
coffee can with an aluminum foil lid to exclude light.
My thinking was room light may cause a silver ion to capture an
electron and turn it into a neutral silver atom. This would reduce
the number of ions available to conduct electricity, and slow down
the process. Eliminating light should speed it up.
The second GIF shows the result. Instead of speeding up, the process
slowed down by over a factor of two!
I removed the lid when the current reached 1500 ua, and there was a
sharp rise in the slope of the current.
My question is: Why does light speed up the process?
Final GIF
~~~~~~~~~
The third GIF shows the current rise during the first 80 minutes. A
polynomial curve fit shows a nice fit to an exponential. The curve
deviates when bubble start to form, as shown in the first GIF.
Conclusion
~~~~~~~~~~
Clearly, making colloidal silver with a fixed voltage is going to be
hard to make reproducible. There are too many variables: electrode
spacing, bubble formation, and initial conductivity of the water.
Also, an exponential current rise is not an easy function to
control, since a lot of things happen very quickly towards the end
of the process.
I plan to make a constant-current source with 300 volts of
compliance, and report any interesting results.
Summary
~~~~~~~
Sorry this took so much of your time - probably it is very basic to
most of you.
But it sure would be nice to find the answers to some of these
questions. Thank you for your help!
Best Regards,
Michael R. Monett
mailto:[email protected]
P.S. I checked with Mike D. and he said it was ok to attach GIF's as
long as the entire post took less than 40k. This one is about 20k.
----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
Return-Path: <[email protected]>
Received: from rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (rly-yh04.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.36])
by air-yh04.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:03:48 1900
Received: from mx1.eskimo.com (mx1.eskimo.com [204.122.16.48]) by
rly-yh04.mx.aol.com (v66.4) with ESMTP; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:03:34 -0500
Received: (from smart...@localhost)
by mx1.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) id SAA07697;
Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:03:29 -0800
Resent-Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:03:29 -0800
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:03:01 -0500
From: add automation <[email protected]>
Organization: UTS
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------403841697F5C"
Resent-Message-ID: <"e0kc22.0.4u1.m9mKu"@mx1>
Resent-From: [email protected]
Reply-To: [email protected]
X-Mailing-List: <[email protected]> archive/latest/17583
X-Loop: [email protected]
Precedence: list
Resent-Sender: [email protected]
Subject: CS>LONG: Some Notes and a Few Questions on CS
>>
--
The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver.
To join or quit silver-list or silver-digest send an e-mail message to:
[email protected] -or- [email protected]
with the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the SUBJECT line.
To post, address your message to: [email protected]
Silver-list archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html
List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]>
