> -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Monett [mailto:mzmvdd...@sneakemail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 15 July 2003 4:57 a.m. > To: silver-list@eskimo.com > Subject: RE: CS>The color of silver > > > url: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/m61192.html > RE: CS>The color of silver > From: Ivan Anderson > Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 03:03:44 > > > Hello Mike, > > > I am back on board for a while, and am glad to help where I can. > > This is great! There are many questions I would like to ask:) > > > The mobility of ions (movement under the > influence of an > > electrical gradient) in aqueous solution is measured > as m2s-1V-1. > > That is, metres squared per second per volt. > Metres squared > > because of the relationship between mobility and diffusion. > > > Silver ion Ag+ 6.4 x 10^-8 > > Hydroxyl ion OH- 20.5 x 10^-8 > > > As you can see the mobility of ions is extremely slow, > 0.02mm per > > second for Ag+ at 30V. Notice that the hydroxyl ions > travels at > > three times the speed of the silver ion. > > Ugh. Thanks for the information. This is a > potentially crippling > blow to my theory, but I'll think about it and see what develops. > > > I have seen some mists leaving the anode, but > only at high > > potentials or in contaminated water. > > Yes, I don't see mist at the anode very often, and > only at high > current. Here is an example of a 3 nines misting at both > electrodes: > > http://www.utopiasilver.com/images/gen3.jpg
Well, it looks like it is only emanating from one electrode to me. > > Some food for thought: OH- is generated at the > cathode in equal > > quantities to Ag+ at the anode, until some silver ions > reach the > > cathode. > > Yes, this brings up a small problem. Several people > have posted > observations of misting with a 3 nines after only 10 > minutes of > operation. This does not seem to allow enough time for > silver ions > to reach the cathode. Not quite sure what you mean. Ions don't need to reach the other electrode in order for the current to rise, indeed that would limit the current increase somewhat. > > At that time both water and silver ions are reduced > here (and > > perhaps silver ions preferentially given the > over-voltage required > > to reduce water) so the amount of OH- available for > reaction with > > Ag+ is lower, perhaps halved at least. > > Something funny seems to be happening at the > cathode with low > current density (for example, 87 uA/sq.in.) > > With high current density, both electrodes are covered > with a black > film. Even if you wipe it off, the electrodes remain dark. > > When the same electrodes are run at low current density, > the anode > remains dark, but the cathode residue is removed > down to bare > silver. Steve mentioned that he tried running at low > current and > observed the same thing. Yes, I use that fact, and a generous distance between electrodes to design generators that don't require stirring, and yet still have an acceptable generating time (< 2hrs @ 500mL) because of the 30V starting voltage. If you get the parameters correct, by the time silver ions reach the cathode an acceptable concentration has been reached (10 - 15 ppm), and at 20 ppm only a very fine grey cathode coating. In my view the black coating on the anode is the look of silver metal disassociating into ions... I doubt that there is much in the way of silver oxide in this coating as oxygen is not generated in this process. Indeed this layer should not be disturbed, in my view, and should be left intact between batches. > > Also, for ions to interact they must pretty much > collide head on > > with each other and with sufficient velocity to break > through the > > shield of water molecules they drag with them and > which form the > > ions hydrated radius. For example, the radius of the > Ag+ ion is > > about 0.126nm while its hydrated radius is 0.212nm > > > What does all this mean? well my view is: The > concentration of > > silver ions will rise in the solution as long as water > is reduced > > to H2(gas) at the cathode. The interaction between > Ag+ and OH- > > forming AgOH or 2AgO (the two are interchangeable > depending upon > > pH) is minimal, perhaps only 1 or 2%. There is > some Ag(solid) > > colloids infused from Ag+ reduction at the cathode. > > > Regards > > Ivan > > Yes, it seems the probability of silver ions combining > with hydroxyl > seems to be very low. The thing that strikes me is > when misting > starts, it occurs very suddenly. This has always > surprised me. If > the process is continued, the entire solution turns black > and coats > the sides of the glass. Yes, I believe that some form of micro arcing occurs and the electrode is sputtering rather than subject to electrolysis. > However, misting does not seem to occur below a > certain current > density. Near the end of the process, I sometimes see > very tiny gray > fingers growing on the cathode. Perhaps you see them also > since you > run at low current. Yes, I have grown some beauties in my time (dendrites are the technical term). > If I stop the process at this point and wipe the cathode, > the trace > deposit looks shiny instead of black. If I continue > the process > after the fingers start growing, the solution starts > turning yellow. The dendrites are formed mainly of elemental silver powder (and perhaps some AgOH) and as such are only tenuously held together and some inevitably enters the solution as colloids and gives colour to the brew depending upon size and concentration. > One thing that might help explain this is the > concentration of ions > depends on the current density. At low current > density, the ion > cloud is too diffuse to allow many interactions, and > few particles > are produced. As the current is increased, two things happen: > > 1. the number of ions increases, which makes a denser cloud. > > 2. the stronger electric field compresses the ion cloud > closer to > the electrodes. This also makes it denser. As the current increases the production of ions increases and the potential field decreases, and so the speed of the ion slows and therefore so does its rate of escape from the electrode area. > With a denser cloud, 1% or 2% becomes a large number, > since it only > applies to the local ion concentration, and not the > concentration of > the entire solution. Don't forget the same thing happens on the other side of the cell at the other electrode. > However, you have thrown a monkey wrench into my > theory with the > hydroxyl mobility. I'll have to take my daily walk and > think about > it some more. > > But thanks very much for the replies. I'd love to > hear your > description of how the misting starts. > > I'll collect the links to my process as you requested and > post them > later. > > Best Regards, > > Mike Monett OK, talk to you later. Ivan. -- The silver-list is a moderated forum for discussion of colloidal silver. 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