Ode Coyote wrote: > At 11:46 AM 10/7/2005 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Ode Coyote wrote: > > > >> If both exceed their solubility limits and form molecular structures small > >> enough to stay suspended, then both and either can be considered colloidal. > > > >I think a suspension would be more apt. Silver oxide and silver hydroxide > will > >form a suspension, but it will fall out and go to the bottom since it is > lacking > >in zeta potential. I think the term colloid refers to a suspension that > does not > >settle out. > ## There is Brownian Motion that keeps small particles in suspension. > Milk and paint are examples of a colloid. Not sure where 'emulsion' falls > in there. I have seen emulsification and stratification effects in very > badly made CS where actual settling wasn't evident to a great degree.
Browning movement is part of it, but there must be a charge as well if the particles will aggregate on contact. With silver oxide, there is no charge, and when browning movement brings them together, they aggregate. Once they reach a sufficient size, then they no longer can stay suspended and will settle out. Now oil in water, such as milk fat in milk is a different story. There is a surface tension on the oil droplets, that prevents the emulsion of oil from aggregating and will form a stable emulstion. It only requires the oil droplets to be sufficiently small. > > > > >> > >> Next questions: Can such a molecular structure consist of both molecules > >> in one crystal and can peroxide scavange one away and/or the other and > >> break the crystal apart while producing metallic silver in the process? > > > >I believe it can if I understand you. I think you are asking if H2O2 and > Ag2O > >can react to form Ag2 and H2O and O2 if the silver oxide is in the form of a > >precipitated crystal. I believe that is one reason why H2O2 can clear a > milky CS > >so quickly. > ## Well, maybe not exactly that. I'm thinking more along the lines of an > alloy and crystal lattice structure destruction with peroxide rather than a > molecular compound combination and chemical interaction...but the end > result could, in effect, be the same and include the possibility of both > pigment and light scattering effects co-existing. > IOW A particle size color along with a pigment tint form black to dark > brown oxides in an alloy crystal accounting for various hues of the > particle size color, especially the variances of blacks in light to dark > 'tea' colors where the base color could be pure yellow from size with > depth/intensity of pure yellow being from concentration.\ It could. But I still maintain that any silver oxide or silver hydroxide will product a milky efffect, and will over sufficient time settle out, leaving only the dissolved ionic silver and colloidal silver. > > > > >> > >> > >> What role could suspended oxides in such a crystal play in 'shades of > >> black' darkened tints of a color produced by particle size? aka "tea" > colors. > > > >First you have to look at the solution and see if you are looking at a clear > >liquid that is absorbing light at certain wavelengths, or something that > is milky > >and reflecting light of certain wavelengths. The color of the first is > caused by > >a colloid of fairly large particles that are absorbing in the violet and blue > >range. The second by a suspension of silver oxide and silver hydroxide > particles > >that are brown colored. However if you let it set, the second particle > should > >eventually settle out, only leaving the true colloid of silver particles. > ## I actually do see both and more on occasion. A deeply > yellow/brown/black particle won't exactly settle out, but all the colored > particles will eventually collide with the sides and bottom of the > container and stick there leaving the liquid clear/colorless and still > showing all the signs of being ionic/colloidal silver. [I have photos] > Rinsing that with peroxide instantly dissolves the deep yellow/brown/black > coating. This is most likly larger silver particles. If it were silver oxide or hydroxide then hot water would also remove it. > > It's not always a matter of 'this or that', more like 'this and that' and > yet another. > >> > >> > >> It is possible that "particles" can be too small for a laser to 'see'. [?] > >> Relativly high PPM, low conductivity and little TE is a possible > >> combination further complicating the use of meters? > > > >Atoms and ionis yes, but I believe that an aggregation of 2 or more silver > atoms > >will scatter light. If you add H2O2, I believe that the particles will be > 2 aoms > >each, yet you can still get some tyndall with it. > ## I was told by someone here that the diameter of just a few atoms still > falls under the range what visible light will reflect off of...or is that > refract? Tyndall is from reflection. We do see tyndall when H2O2 is added, although usually pretty faint. Either 2 atom colloid is sufficienct for tyndall to be seen, or 2 atom particles tend to aggregate into larger, but still very small particles. I do not have the tools to determine which it is. > > I so, that could explain a few conductivity/TE anomolies that pop up now > and then. Yep, sure could. Marshall > > > Ode > > > >Marshall > > > >> > >> > >> Ode > >> > >> At 04:50 PM 10/6/2005 -0400, you wrote: > >> > > >> >Dan Nave wrote: > >> > > >> >> This agrees with my experimental results where I had to use about 3 > >> >> drops of H2O2 > >> >> to clear 12 oz. of slightly yellowed CS. Any less removed the yellow > >> >> color but left the CS cloudy. > >> >> > >> >> However, I'd appreciate if you could clear up a few things for me... > >> >> > >> >> What is the final proportion of ionic to colloidal content? 50/50? > >> > > >> >I really don't know. It depends on the rates of conversion from > colloid to > >> >silver oxide, and silver oxide to colloid. If the rates are the same, > then > >> >one might expect 50/50. However since silver oxide spontaneously converts > >> >back and forth with silver hydroxide when in solution, and I do not > believe > >> >silver hydroxide takes part in the reaction with H2O2, if the conversion > >> >between H2O2 and silver oxide and back again are the same, it could be > >> >66.6/33.3 > >> > > >> >If the rates are different each direction, then it is anyone's guess. > >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Are you calling silver hydroxide the colloidal part and > >> >> silver oxide the ionic part? > >> > > >> >No, both silver oxide Ag2O and silver hydroxide AgOH are ionic. If you > >> >have one you have the other when in water, they continually convert from > >> >one to the other, and I believe approach a 50/50 ratio at the solubility > >> >limit. I believe at lower concentrations the AgOH tends to dominate > though. > >> > > >> >Marshall > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >-- > >> >The Silver List is a moderated forum for discussing Colloidal Silver. > >> > > >> >Instructions for unsubscribing are posted at: http://silverlist.org > >> > > >> >To post, address your message to: [email protected] > >> >Silver List archive: http://escribe.com/health/thesilverlist/index.html > >> > > >> >Address Off-Topic messages to: [email protected] > >> >OT Archive: http://escribe.com/health/silverofftopiclist/index.html > >> > > >> >List maintainer: Mike Devour <[email protected]> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >-- > >> >No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9/116 - Release Date: 9/30/2005 > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >-- > >> >No virus found in this incoming message. > >> >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.9 - Release Date: 9/30/2005 > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> No virus found in this outgoing message. > >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 > > > > > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13/123 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 > > > > > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/6/2005 > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.13 - Release Date: 10/7/2005
