> ha ha I'm happy to hear both workflows! each scenario is different seeings I
> explained
> more about the shot and that it needs rendering!
think of it in photoshop terms:
on one hand you work in layers, adjustment layers and groups – to be able to
make modifications
but at some point you flatten – all or part of it – to simplify, because you
have to for certain things, for performance or to export the final version
that’s used elsewhere – while keeping the layered version of course.
Making one huge 3D scene where everything is interconnected, non-destructive,
procedural, modifiable is great – especially while going through design changes
– but at some point it can become counterproductive and consolidating things
can be your way out.
The balance between these two is not a simple black and white thing – no
absolute rules. Sometimes you need a mixture of both, sometimes either extreme.
And when you run into trouble on one end, it might be worth trying the opposite
approach. I think it’s an important skill to acquire, to understand these
strategies, to know when to simplify and consolidate and when not to – ideally
before things start to fall apart .
The photoshop analogy is far from perfect btw: flattening makes a file smaller
and lighter. Localizing models is going to make the scene bigger
I hope you get your shot/shots out – and can consider such things when things
calm down.
> ... but do confess from one house model to the next I shall have duplicate
> materials that will be essentially connecting the same texture file.
a few duplicate materials or a couple of libraries is far from a problem – if
you kept an eye on things you’re fine. But I’ve run into scenes with thousands
of unnamed materials, that are all just the same default phong. It’s always
worth it to go over what you have done - the more you can clean up, the less
bloat the software has to deal with. You’ll run into situations where this
becomes the difference between being able to achieve what you’re after or not.
About working in passes – again there’s no absolute rules. Sometimes you’re
better off with passes and channels for absolutely everything, combining
hundreds of passes in comp – sometimes a single pass and the odd mask or two.
Afaik - the industry is moving a bit away again from multi-pass towards beauty
rendering – in no small amount because of Arnold.
But there’s still a lot to be said for being able to tweak in comp – and
avoiding 3D re-renders.
...
From: Jon Hunt
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 1:35 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Scene crash on startup - any advice
Hi Peter,
ha ha I'm happy to hear both workflows! each scenario is different seeings I
explained more about the shot and that it needs rendering!
Localizing everything has been on my mind! seeings that the models are locked
versions.
I have named all my materials (I did a pass of going through each master model
file converting my shaders to arnold + tweaks and deleting unused materials
through the external files tool) but do confess from one house model to the
next I shall have duplicate materials that will be essentially connecting the
same texture file. Particularly the wood texture that services all the wooden
beams that are a feature of the houses. I have a lot of material libraries and
am sure I could consolidate this to a global material library.
I shall be kicking out multiple passes but more separating out objects with
mattes rather than a set of channels to recomp. I am finding I am getting good
results from Arnold and don't overly want to complicate things nor have the
time. A decent compositior would tear my head off for saying this I'm sure!
I have held up on the scene until later today. I felt it be productive that I
light another scene (seeings I can open it!!) besides it made me feel better!
I'm gonna check out the scntoc manager later but back at work/uni tomorrow so
failing this I shall save a reference version of the scene then localize it
all.
Thanks again,
Jon
On Sun, Aug 3, 2014 at 11:17 AM, <pete...@skynet.be> wrote:
Well, I’m going to suggest the exact opposite of before .
Why don’t you try and localize EVERYTHING to the scene (did you get to open
it when offloading the models?) – make sure all geometry is frozen and delete
all unneeded clusters.
and do a good cleanup of the materials - assuming you have named you
materials it’s just a matter of selecting all corresponding parts and assign
them to the same material (one single wood material, one single metal
material,... for the whole of the scene)
Also remove unused materials and clips – and do it repeatedly – it never
hurts to click those buttons too often.
You can also merge all objects with the same material (eg all chimneys, all
rivets,...) which can drastically reduce the amount of objects without
resorting to clusters.
If you just want to render a single beauty pass – you can merge complete
houses - you’ll end up with clusters and cluster materials – which is no good
for working with passes.
It’s basically consolidating your scene, flattening it down, removing all
dependencies. This makes it ‘uneditable’ – but since you are ready to render
that’s fine.
It’s actually not uncommon for film pipelines to include this as an automated
step when sending off the scene to render. (saving it as a separate render only
version – that only serves that purpose: getting your renders out.)
From: Jon Hunt
Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2014 10:34 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: Scene crash on startup - any advice
Thank you both Peter and Matt for your lengthy replies.
I've found your replies informative and interesting.
I am trying best possible to work to best practices and feel a little
reassured! I am not doing much else other than laying out the models in the
scene. I do have some geo in there (landscape) and some models I have made
local.
In summary the scene is a large camera move that flies through a village that
is fairly dense with houses. I have built 3 variations of house with
windows/doors/chimneys and so it is modular so I can avoid any repetition and
build a custom house.
This inevitably means I have reference models inside reference models.
However through research I have not gone more than 2 levels deep with them and
arranged the embedded ref models inside nulls for any SRT transforms.
All models have master files that I have setup and refer back to when I make
any changes.
I think where I have gone wrong is if I want to make another variation of a
house on the fly, I have taken a house model and made the top part of the
hierarchy local and duplicated sub parts which are still referenced in. In
doing this it has prompted me to share or copy material libraries.
If I want another variation. I should build it in master file and bring it
back in.
I have done this 4/5 times in say 40 models, so I know where to fix it.
Another workflow I could be using (should be using?) is stand ins. I did do a
test render on Friday without using them and with a basic lightning setup up it
munched it up. I am not overly concerned about the scene being to heavy now. I
am unsure of this crossover as to when I should be using standins verses ref
models. This is a separate conversation I am sure. I also have a deadline
looming and need the darn shot rendered!
Thanks,
Jon
On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 9:42 PM, Matt Lind <speye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
A scene size of 53 MB containing mostly referenced models indicates there
is still a lot of data, such as animation (FCurves) or data applied on top of
the referenced models in model deltas, still in the scene.
the first thing to try is rolling back your scene to a previous version
(including referenced models) if you have been using source control.
The "done fixing hidden cluster" error indicates a geometry problem. With
a scene containing many referenced models, it's likely one or more models was
imported into the scene as a referenced model, modified in some way that
applied a dependency which needs geometry information, and the referenced model
was later edited offline outside the scene. Next time the scene opens,
Softimage is surprised because the referenced model is in a different state
than the last time the scene was saved and has all this dependency data it
doesn't know what to do with, so mayhem breaks out. For example, if you
applied an object-to-cluster constraint, the constraint operator has a
dependency on the cluster. If you delete the cluster from the referenced model
outside the scene, the next time the scene opens and uses that model, Softimage
will see the constraint operator and try to connect to a now non-existent
cluster, then get confused.
There are some topology operators which generate hidden clusters behind the
curtains from user view which are used as a scratchpad for calculations. It's
very possible the above scenario has occurred and the operator's cluster in
question cannot reconnect to it's dependencies because one or more of it's
inputs has disappeared from the model being changed outside the scene. One
test is to open each referenced model locally in an empty scene. Check the
script log before doing any work on each model, if you get the error message
again, then you've found the problem. Freeze its modeling construction history
using "Freeze M", then export to update the .emdl. If you know of constraints
or other operators, such as object-to-cluster, and have knowingly deleted the
cluster, then try recreating the cluster to satisfy the scene next time it is
opened.
If all the models import successfully into empty scenes, then reopen the
original scene and see if the error still occurs. If it does, then the problem
is likely caused by data local to the scene and not in a referenced model.
Data in model deltas is considered local to the scene, not the model. However,
it's unlikely the problem is in model deltas if it's giving you 'hidden
cluster' errors, but in the rare chance it is, check the 'removed items'
section of the delta and cross reference it with the other categories for
dangling entries. Every item appearing in the removed items list will have an
associated entry in another category of the model delta. for example, if you
import the referenced model, change it's position, then undo that action, there
will be entries in the 'stored positions' category to record the position
change, and an associated entry in the 'removed items' category to undo that
position change (All the entries in the deltas are evaluated, and the removed
items list acts to cancel out anything that appears in the previous lists). If
you cannot find a pair for each entry, then something's wrong. In which case,
flush the item from the removed items list by selecting and deleting it. I
recommend this over deleting the entire delta as some tend to do, because
deleting a model delta is often unnecessary and only loses all your work. In
most cases the problem isn't too hard to find as long as you pay attention to
what you're looking for.
Matt
----------------------------
Hi List,
Asked a thousand times before I'm sure. I have researched and having no Joy
and could really do with some suggestions please.
Soft 2014 SP2 - Scene opens at Uni on an identically specced HP workstation
machine.
I noticed my home machine (when the file did work) took about 20mins to
load whereas at Uni it was around 5 minutes.
Scene size 53mb
Scene contains mostly reference models.
Following the help topics I turned on scene debugging>Load recovery journal
file. I have have pointed it to an existing text file but it hasn't written
anything to that.
I do have a .lrf file but I am unsure what to do with this?
I restart xsi and I get prompted 5 or so time about having a ghost model.
It continues to load but then hangs without crashing after sticking on
"done fixing hidden cluster"
Any input would be muchly appreciated
Jon
