It's been a while and I didn't use them extensively but Houdini has quite a robust "render pass" element to it.
On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 3:08 PM, Kris Rivel <krisri...@gmail.com> wrote: > What's the status of Houdini and/or other apps in terms of render passes, > etc.? I just love me some passes and overrides and have been using them > insanely for years. I'm terrified to try and work without them. > > Kris > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 4:40 AM, Raffaele Fragapane < > raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: > >> Be ready to have someone write some help if you ever do, without a decent >> system to reduce them to sparse data and to work do the work GPU side 800 >> shapes move at the speed of a brick chained to a column, especially in Maya >> :) XSI 5 however was managing it respectably well already on Pentium III >> and 4s back then :) >> >> On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 2:44 AM, Greg Punchatz <g...@janimation.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Raff, >>> >>> I have used both techniques but never heard some of those terms.... ICE >>> made doing this work much easier for me. >>> >>> I have never ended up with 800 shapes.... but give me the time and the >>> budget and that sounds like a blast :) >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> You can blame Bay Raitt for some of the names being thrown around, and >>>> the LISP community he grew up in :) >>>> >>>> Combination sculpting comes in two flavors, FACS based, with >>>> expressions tabled out and combinations being largely corrective and >>>> flattened out, and twitch based, with shapes representing individual >>>> muscles as roots, combinations of nearby muscles in couples or triplets as >>>> first branch, and so on to full face compensation, usually you stop at tier >>>> three or four, which can easily get you hundreds of shapes (Charlotte in >>>> Charlotte's web was twitch combinations and amounted to 802 shapes, Gollum >>>> in return of the kind was FACS and I think Bay ended up in the 820 or so >>>> range in the end). >>>> >>>> You can use something like stretch mesh (or ideally better) >>>> equalisation process after that to reduce drift if you're in a hurry with >>>> the broad strokes. >>>> >>>> Combinatorics are shapes that bridge two other shapes by correcting >>>> their conflict (additive) rather than by replacing them (you can combine >>>> with C = abs(A-B) in the former, or suplant with C = abs(A-B) and then >>>> subtract C's intensity from A and B). >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Greg Punchatz <g...@janimation.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We (Brad did all the ICE magic) worked up some pretty niffy tricks for >>>>> our head tech demo. >>>>> >>>>> We could pose our head which was a slightly enhanced FR rig export a >>>>> reference head into ZB... bring it back into soft the subtract the the >>>>> deforms of the mesh and reapply only the differences from the corrective >>>>> shape. >>>>> >>>>> Point drift is caused most of the time by subdividing the model in >>>>> Zbrush. If you do a subdivision in Z all your base point will shift. In >>>>> our case the mesh was dense enough that was not an issue, we could still >>>>> clearly see the forms without subdividing while in Zbrush. Brad wired up a >>>>> ICE tree for the imported corrective shapes to be triggered by pulling >>>>> different distances from the rig. Of course drift can happen from someone >>>>> moving points they have no business of moving, or even worse they move >>>>> points in the wrong direction for the correction or shape. I always work >>>>> in >>>>> a stepped process to avoid this for shapes, whether I sent to Zbrush or >>>>> not. I am at first only focused on how the point mass moves first. I try >>>>> to >>>>> get this done with as few proportional moves as possible. Then I test the >>>>> motion in Soft and on the rig., take a look at what it looks like with >>>>> the >>>>> jaw open etc. Then I slowly massage the shapes into place checking the >>>>> sculpt in action >>>>> >>>>> I don't remember if the zbrush link busts your rig, in our case the >>>>> workflow was to use separate reference geo. >>>>> >>>>> It is better if it when done all under one roof but if my point count >>>>> goes high enough I will jump through a few hoops to get to a better point >>>>> manipulator. >>>>> >>>>> Raf I have never heard the term combinatorics before, and when I >>>>> looked it up I could not find any references that clearly showed me how it >>>>> applied to shape animation or rigging. Can you point me to a reference >>>>> that >>>>> might help fill in my knowledge gap : ) >>>>> >>>>> Also Eric, I had heard of folks having a different neutral vs >>>>> skinning pose but I have not really seen a good explanation of the idea. I >>>>> have modified a sculpt to be better for rigging, but that shape then >>>>> becomes my base shape. What is the difference? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 2:31 PM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> If you're doing combinatorics you don't model the shapes in >>>>>> isolation, you tweak a base and need to see the result on the >>>>>> combination, >>>>>> which might be one to four tiers of combinations away. >>>>>> You don't do combination sculpting without the rig because you don't >>>>>> do combination sculpting on the final shape half the time if you're >>>>>> sensible and can't waste a lot of time in kickbacks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Doing shapes in ZBrush is doable, but they all need a lot of work >>>>>> after coming back in because by the nature of ZBrush you will have shit >>>>>> drifting all over the place. When they will add more than a single morph >>>>>> and a few simple vector operations to wire the morphs it will then be the >>>>>> ultimate tool for it, right now it's like trying to drive a truck out of >>>>>> a >>>>>> parking lot with a small gate. Blindfolded. On iced out ground. With a >>>>>> monkey hitting you on the head with a baseball bat every five seconds. >>>>>> Technically doable, but not worth the bother unless you get to show the >>>>>> mental breakdowns on TV and cash them in :) >>>>>> >>>>>> If you're doing cartoony or largely procedurally shaded stuff you can >>>>>> take a fair amount of drift. if you're doing something that has hundreds >>>>>> of >>>>>> rigid scales or precisely styled hair bound to the UV space it's an >>>>>> unmitigated disaster when you don't have something like Soft (or a >>>>>> shitton >>>>>> of stuff piled on top of Maya) around to do the work. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Greg Punchatz <g...@janimation.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Raff while what you say is true about needing to check the results >>>>>>> of your sculpts in combination with with other shapes and deformers. >>>>>>> There >>>>>>> is no reason those edits should not be done in the tool-set best suited >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> sculpt. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Using something like Zaplink or a few scripts can make the back and >>>>>>> forth seamless. ICE made it so much easier to to pose based >>>>>>> deformations >>>>>>> and corrective shapes using Zbrush to edit. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That being said I still do a great bit of my shape work in soft, >>>>>>> unless its a very dense mesh, then I whip out the Z >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The problem with ZBrush, or any modelling app that doesn't have >>>>>>>> your full rig in it, is that for things like combination sculpting >>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>> useless, because you need to see multiple timelines of the shapes >>>>>>>> converging as you refine them for the result to be any good. It's also >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> ton easier to get combinatorics started in Soft since you can start any >>>>>>>> shape from any number of others with ICE. I so miss that in any other >>>>>>>> app >>>>>>>> (that last bit is literally the only one where Houdini could compete or >>>>>>>> even surpass Soft, actually, though it's somewhat painful to wrangle >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> shit together when you hit a certain degree of complexity and you end >>>>>>>> up >>>>>>>> spending more time making an uber rig than you do working the shapes' >>>>>>>> alignment). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 11:27 PM, Jordi Bares Dominguez < >>>>>>>> jordiba...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the notes, there has been quite a lot of changes but it >>>>>>>>> is true there are a few of your comments still pending, the most >>>>>>>>> pressing >>>>>>>>> to me is speed and the viewport needs still lots of love. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> BTW, I was not advocating to use Houdini for modelling though, >>>>>>>>> rather use Zbrush to be honest and now that Zbrush is getting closer >>>>>>>>> to a >>>>>>>>> full set of traditional modelling tools it is pretty obvious it is the >>>>>>>>> route to go. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My feeling is that character work is certainly more painful but at >>>>>>>>> least you get some serious gains and unfortunately there are no >>>>>>>>> options so >>>>>>>>> we are in a transition moment. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So far they are listening and moving forward so I will stick to >>>>>>>>> Houdini for the time being and keep an eye on others. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> :-) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> jb >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 21:28, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A lot of quality rigging, despite piles of papers trying to sell >>>>>>>>> the public on the contrary, is still manually tweaked. Taking things >>>>>>>>> out of >>>>>>>>> the app where you have the full rig makes authoring a major pain. The >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>> basic example is shapes, doing shapes work in XSI for something like a >>>>>>>>> combination sculpting setup was as easy as it got, especially after >>>>>>>>> ICE. >>>>>>>>> The way data is presented and accessible, the speed on large >>>>>>>>> meshes, the modelling toolkit, it all lent itself to that kind of >>>>>>>>> work in a >>>>>>>>> perfect storm scenario. >>>>>>>>> Doing the same in Maya, comparatively, is beyond painful and >>>>>>>>> requires a pretty big staging effort to separate work and write >>>>>>>>> accessory >>>>>>>>> tools, in Houdini you don't even have a particularly intuitive >>>>>>>>> modelling >>>>>>>>> toolkit, and the handling of large meshes was pretty meh with it (at >>>>>>>>> least >>>>>>>>> up to 12, it seems to be getting better and promising to be getting >>>>>>>>> better >>>>>>>>> again). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The toolkit in general is pretty hard to impossible to give to a >>>>>>>>> modeller with little inclination to learn something like Houdini, >>>>>>>>> while >>>>>>>>> with both Maya and Soft that's not a big challenge. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I haven't tried the muscle system in a while, so my comment might >>>>>>>>> be dated to the point of not being valid, but the last time I did it >>>>>>>>> was a >>>>>>>>> bit of a joke. No arbitrary topology for the deformers unless you >>>>>>>>> cloth >>>>>>>>> collided (and the cloth solver was anything but acceptable), only >>>>>>>>> some weak >>>>>>>>> superset of metaballs, rather slow, but at least it was relatively >>>>>>>>> stable, >>>>>>>>> and overall clunky and requiring the lot a lot of micromanagement and >>>>>>>>> a lot >>>>>>>>> of SOPs that often refused to play nicely with the rest of the app. >>>>>>>>> Mind, I haven't found a single commercial muscle system I would >>>>>>>>> use if they paid me for it, which is pretty embarrassing given when we >>>>>>>>> needed one for WWD we got a rather intuitive one done in just a few >>>>>>>>> weeks >>>>>>>>> that worked for over 99% of the show meshes without manual >>>>>>>>> intervention of >>>>>>>>> any sort on the sim, and literally only a dozen mesh fixes across >>>>>>>>> over 800 >>>>>>>>> shots. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On top of all that, and again this is pre-14, most pre-13, it's >>>>>>>>> slow. Mind boggingly slow to articulate a decent animation rig. I >>>>>>>>> suspect >>>>>>>>> this last point has been, or is about to be, superseded though since >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> viewport has been getting some love. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The main issue though remains that preparing an asset in Houdini >>>>>>>>> remains a long and involved process which very few people from other >>>>>>>>> departments, some times nobody, can be recruited into, it's born, >>>>>>>>> lives and >>>>>>>>> dies in the hands of TDs. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've always had a soft spot for Houdini, and I'd give my money to >>>>>>>>> SideFX rather than many other companies any day of the year, but as a >>>>>>>>> company their commitment to character work of artistic or hybrid >>>>>>>>> nature has >>>>>>>>> always been patchy (and I don't necessarily blame them for it) and >>>>>>>>> subpar. >>>>>>>>> They have a lot of work to make up for it, but they seem to be >>>>>>>>> slowly doing it while making sure they don't lose their core business >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> FX and end-to-end clients. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will certainly be looking at H14 as soon as some space for it in >>>>>>>>> the stash of stuff I need and want to do before clears up :) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Jordi Bares Dominguez < >>>>>>>>> jordiba...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> May I ask you to elaborate the “complex character rigging and >>>>>>>>>> tuned deformation”, I may be missing something. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To start with you have muscles in Houdini which you don’t, let >>>>>>>>>> alone FEM simulations and a universal physics engine to cope with >>>>>>>>>> pretty >>>>>>>>>> sophisticated things… >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Certainly it is easier in Softimage and more artist friendly to >>>>>>>>>> setup but I see the rigging side as one very strong point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If you are talking about screen space corrections, blend shapes >>>>>>>>>> and advanced contact collision its certainly doable with the >>>>>>>>>> toolset. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> :-| >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> thx >>>>>>>>>> jb >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 16:59, Raffaele Fragapane < >>>>>>>>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's only true for some definitions of rigging. >>>>>>>>>> If you need proceduralism of course it does spectacularly well, >>>>>>>>>> and assets are simply best of breed in the industry and have been for >>>>>>>>>> years, end of story. >>>>>>>>>> For the hand-crafted complex character rig and tuned deformation >>>>>>>>>> kind of job though, no, it's not nicer than Soft, and I'd be hard >>>>>>>>>> pressed >>>>>>>>>> to make an argument for it over Maya (which I consider pretty bottom >>>>>>>>>> barreling already without a ton of custom work). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Some of the upgrades in H14 and some of the future roadmap do >>>>>>>>>> bode well for that though. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:28 PM, Gerbrand Nel <nagv...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Well I say nicer, because there are allot of toys to play with. >>>>>>>>>>> I think rigging is the part where you need a non destructive >>>>>>>>>>> procedural work flow the most. >>>>>>>>>>> In Maya it feels like you have to make damn sure you are done >>>>>>>>>>> with step A before moving onto step B. >>>>>>>>>>> Houdini is flexible to the point where you become reckless with >>>>>>>>>>> your work flow :) >>>>>>>>>>> Bit more complex when you get started, but worth it. >>>>>>>>>>> The auto rig at the very least doesn't break like the soft one >>>>>>>>>>> used to in 2011 :) >>>>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/01/2015 14:08, Mirko Jankovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Riggin nicer then Soft? >>>>>>>>>>> Will have to check it out then.. In maya rigging and enveloping >>>>>>>>>>> is huge crap and biggest reason that I don't wanna ago back int >>>>>>>>>>> othat hell >>>>>>>>>>> at first place. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Gerbrand Nel < >>>>>>>>>>> nagv...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> After trying to learn maya for about 6 months, learning houdini >>>>>>>>>>>> is a breath of fresh air!! >>>>>>>>>>>> It is not softimage, but I think its the only thing that will >>>>>>>>>>>> come close to the flexibility and power of soft for small studios >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> freelancers. >>>>>>>>>>>> Once you get into it, It is even more power. >>>>>>>>>>>> I tried learning it about 2 years ago, and gave up because I >>>>>>>>>>>> thought my time would be better spent getting better in soft (the >>>>>>>>>>>> future >>>>>>>>>>>> was still bright back then) >>>>>>>>>>>> Back then it seemed complicated, but after dealing with maya, >>>>>>>>>>>> it feels sooo much friendlier. >>>>>>>>>>>> The way I see it, you get the operator stack, and ice tree, all >>>>>>>>>>>> in one place, the network view >>>>>>>>>>>> So its one thing to learn. >>>>>>>>>>>> In Maya I feel like I have to learn new software every time I >>>>>>>>>>>> do something else. >>>>>>>>>>>> Rigging I found nicer than soft, and the animation editor in >>>>>>>>>>>> houdini feels like a polished version of the soft one. >>>>>>>>>>>> Houdini engine is still blowing my mind.. like it doesn't stop!! >>>>>>>>>>>> At $300 you cannot ignore this as a piece of your pipeline! >>>>>>>>>>>> I'll probably do allot of work in maya because I need to fit >>>>>>>>>>>> into teams of Mayans, but with the houdini engine, I can do the >>>>>>>>>>>> work in the >>>>>>>>>>>> software best suited for it, without forcing the rest of the team >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> conform. >>>>>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/01/2015 12:08, Mirko Jankovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> modeling and character riga nd animation wise it is I assume >>>>>>>>>>>>> sitill nt as suser friendly as SI right? >>>>>>>>>>>>> how us ievrall generalist and smalls tudio experience? >>>>>>>>>>>>> SI is more or less out of the box great steramlined solution.. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! >>>>>>>> Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship >>>>>> it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship >>>> it and let them flee like the dogs they are! >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it >> and let them flee like the dogs they are! >> > >
