As I have stated before, I have found the best defense is the person/persons providing the money. A simple letter stating the FD/AHJ is requiring something above code. Provide copies along with your change order proposal in the amount of the change. This of course should be weighed against repeat business, actual amount, and the like. More times than not, a few owner generated calls will do wonders. Then again, there are the hard hold outs who will not budge. Sometimes it depends on your jurisdiction. Some states require that any changes or above the minimum requirements be approved and adopted by the local jurisdiction. A copy of which should be made available to those practicing trades. Then it falls to us to be aware of them where we work.
R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Rd. PO Box 877 Cantonment, FL. 32533 850-937-1850 Voice 850-937-1852 Facsimile [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Travis Mack ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 10:27 AM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Telling an AHJ "No" ? ----- > ----- >George: ----- > ----- >I completely agree. Just a couple weeks ago, I had an ----- >AHJ review a set of plans/calcs. There was a small room ----- >that was light hazard. The room was about 150 sq ft. ----- >However, due to lights and such, we were 7.5' off 2 walls. ----- >I calc'd the head at 15gpm. He called and said he ----- >wanted it calc'd at 22.5 gpm. I started to tell him ----- >about the small room and how you take room area and ----- >divide by # of heads to get flow for small rooms in ----- >light hazard. The exact quote was: "Don't try to ----- >justify anything to me. You do what I want or this will ----- >not get approved." He then hung up, no further explanations. ----- >This was in a relatively small jurisdiction in UT and we ----- >have to deal with him frequently. It ended up costing ----- >about $500 to change the piping to give him what he ----- >wanted. Nothing was installed, but it required a change ----- >of pipe size and making a small loop. ----- > ----- >But, how do you go about handling that? He was the top ----- >of the food chain for the FD in that area. Again, as ----- >you stated, that due to schedule and such, we just made ----- >the change and went forward. ----- > ----- >Same thing with this whole 13D and no swing check valve ----- >nonsense. The ruling came from the top of the food ----- >chain in the area. The home owner needed FD approval so ----- >he could get on with things. The sad thing about this ----- >is that it was a home for the head of a large mechanical ----- >/ fire sprinkler company and the system was not ----- >required. He simply wanted it in his home. ----- >After all of this hassle, I am sure he is tainted about ----- >wanting to push for sprinkler systems in single family ----- >homes. He had to eat the change of the valve, and ----- >delayed getting the FD acceptance. How do you fight this one? ----- > ----- >I am sure that everyone has stories of how this could go ----- >on and on! ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of George Church ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 8:07 AM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: Telling an AHJ "No" ? ----- > ----- >I note from this thread and many others on the subject ----- >of what to do when the AHJ requires things that are ----- >beyond their authority, along with a telecon I had ----- >earlier this week, that it happens far more often than ----- >it should, and there's a wide variance on how we ----- >sprinkler guys handle it. ----- > ----- >We're all aware that staying current on the codes- NFPA ----- >and Building- is more than a full-time job, and most ----- >would agree that a large part of the membership benefit ----- >of AFSA and other associations is assistance in keeping ----- >up with those changes, advance notice of what's in the ----- >pipeline, and naturally, the AFSA's Informal ----- >Interpretations. If it is difficult for us to stay atop ----- >of just the FP part of this, and the AHJs we deal with ----- >often lack our breadth of experience, intimate code ----- >knowledge, and they often have handicap and egress ----- >requirements upon which they also must remain current- ----- >so it is not a surprise that we're often saddled with ----- >sorting out valid corrections from hearsay learned in a ----- >seminar and misapplied. ----- > ----- >Compounding this is the tenuous adversarial positions we ----- >may end up in if we tell the AHJ he's wrong, and/or ----- >stand up for the rights of the Owner and/or our own. We ----- >must deal with this guy whenever we're in his ----- >jurisdiction, and there's no end to the things an AHJ ----- >can do to make our lives difficult. So many of us simply ----- >roll over and if its not a lot of money, we give in. ----- >While this avoids continuation of a problem on the first ----- >job, where schedule demands may point to rolling over ----- >since no time exists to "fight", it sets a dangerous ----- >precedent that the AHJ will expect you to follow in the future. ----- > ----- >In one jurisdiction, we were asked when we were planning ----- >on doing our "bucket test" on a 13R installation. I ----- >pointed out that this was a 13D requirement stemming ----- >from the possible need to verify the "calc-light" ----- >option in 13D, but that the calcs run for 13R met a ----- >higher standard of care and therefore the code doesn't ----- >require a bucket test in 13R. He replied our competitors ----- >all do it. And I responded that that's their option, I'd ----- >rather educate you on what you're asking for- and he ----- >said if its not a requirement of 13R, you don't need to ----- >do it. So we saved some labor hours on each job there, ----- >and I trust our competitors no longer have to do it ----- >either (at least those that bother to read this!). But ----- >there was no argument, no lines drawn in the sand, just ----- >an explanation of where and what the requirement was, ----- >and why it didn't apply where he was trying to apply it. ----- >This was made far easier from the AHJ's recognition of ----- >his own limited knowledge, and his familiarity with my ----- >code knowledge- exhibited in the explanation of not only ----- >what the code said, but explaining why. ----- > ----- >The larger problems arise when we encounter what many of ----- >us refer to as the "badge-heavy" AHJ who believes he's ----- >been anointed from on high, and therefore his ----- >proclamations are supreme. Having encountered some of ----- >these, I can understand a second type of response to the ----- >AHJ asking for more than he's entitled to- dump it in ----- >the Owner (or GC's) lap and ask if they want to fight or ----- >give it to him. I don't want to know how much money has ----- >been wasted on pacifying the clueless. This doesn't end ----- >the war, it just lets him win the battle and have ----- >precedent set that he gets his own way, when he really ----- >needs to have someone explain what local amendments are, ----- >how they are obtained, and without them, you have the ----- >base building code. ----- > ----- >The more we cave in to excessive demands, the longer the ----- >problem will persist. ----- > ----- >glc ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of John Drucker ----- >Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:22 AM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Check valve in 13D system ----- > ----- >I second Ron's thoughts. Guys, I cite chapter and verse. ----- >You may not like reading it or worse doing it but hey ----- >its in the code. I'll entertain a variation if you have ----- >a better mousetrap but you gotta do the homework. Its ----- >pretty simple. ----- > ----- >Have the inspector cite it. ----- > ----- >John Drucker (AHJ) ----- > ----- > ----- >-----Original Message----- ----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ----- >Behalf Of Travis Mack ----- >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 7:23 PM ----- >To: [email protected] ----- >Subject: RE: Check valve in 13D system ----- > ----- >Sunny (well actually rainy lately) AZ. It is using a ----- >13D riser assembly from one of the major manufacturer's ----- >and the AHJ is saying NO WAY!!!!!!! ----- >You got me on this one! I got this relayed from the ----- >field superintendant. ----- >The AHJ states it is in the plumbing code somewhere and ----- >he has been trying to get the manufacturer's to get it ----- >out of the those devices for years. ----- > ----- >Again, the reasoning is coming through another person so ----- >I don't know exactly what the AHJ said, but basically, ----- >the riser is being removed and the swing check put in. ----- >2 fire inspectors and then the main boss says it has to ----- >come out and only a swing check is acceptable. ----- > ----- > ----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >[email protected] ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ----- > ----- >__________ NOD32 2430 (20070731) Information __________ ----- > ----- >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. ----- >http://www.eset.com ----- > ----- > ----- >_______________________________________________ ----- >Sprinklerforum mailing list ----- >[email protected] ----- >http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum ----- > ----- >To Unsubscribe, send an email ----- >to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- >(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
