Justin,
Idealy, if you were able to do a worst case water test, at the furthest
point into the development, and based all of your hydraulic calcs and
everything else on that, then perhaps.
But what about the constant changing. Can you honestly tell me that the
builders are gonna stop selling changes and charging extra for them? And
guaranteed, you'll be the last to know about it!!
Many things could muck up a "pre-engineered" design, like a ceiling fan, a
soffit, a new wall, a sloped ceiling, a coffered ceiling, etc.
Are you suggesting that since they are all "pre-engineered", that the
plumber won't have to do any engineering? Who will evaluate these and other
changes?
Just my 2 cents.
Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member)
Corporate Engineer
Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation
241 Hughes Lane
St. Charles, MO 63301
636-946-0011
636-946-5172 (FAX)
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Most new residential developments only have a handfull of different home
models in the entire community. Won't the majority of these systems be
pre-engineered and pre-drawn?
Justin D. Reid, P.E.
Project Engineer
RLH Fire Protection
3430 Unicorn Road
Bakersfield, CA 93308
Office: (661) 410-1350
Cell: (213) 798-0251
Fax: (661) 322-6816
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
With all due respect I think many of you are missing my point. This is
not
about Plumbers vs Sprinkler Contractor's. It is not about the cost of
the
system.
Where and how are they going to get trained people when we can't? Are
they
going to immediately have knowledgeable people at their disposal? Are
they
currently capable of training their huge pool of people to become
knowledgeable? HOW are they going to handle this great influx of new
work in
an industry they do not have experience in? (OBVIOUSLY I am not talking
about Plumbers with dual license who know what they are doing!) Are we
so
inept that we cannot pay people better than average pay and attract
them,
train them and keep them in the industry and they can?
I genuinely want to know the answers because then we could have a bigger
pool of designers to pull from, right?
And YES, please enforce the code within reason using discretion and
judgement. PLEASE weed out the guys putting 1/2" orifice heads and .20
densities in 30' tall warehouses with 24' storage (real situation within
the
last 2 years and yes it is still there). Please REVIEW drawings and get
them
corrected prior to construction. Please do NOT wait until the final
inspection and wonder why the FDC is not where you wanted it but did not
mark it on the drawings at initial review. Please require Owners
Information
Certificates and protection accordingly. Please do so for everyone that
works in your jurisdiction.
Thank you,
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Drucker
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Greg,
Interesting take on non-compliant work, AHJ's, inspections and so forth.
Around these parts I often get accused of "being tough", "enforcing the
code" and all sorts of colorful comments. Seems to me that many
contractors don't want comprehensive enforcement. Which is it ?
I rarely find a field inspection that gets approved the first time
around. Big things from SR heads in LH's where QR's are required,
Incorrect threads on hose valves, leaky hydros to missing head boxes,
spare heads, A/U Certs, missing orifices on test connections, restraint
on end pendents over 100psi, etc. etc. Seems that Quality Control is
missing.
I'm sure other inspectors are heroes, nice guys and the like for not
properly enforcing code, the whole things backwards !
Listen, I hear the anguish. Sprinklers are Sprinklers and damn it that's
our work !. What I heard in Rochester was plain and clear, cost cost
cost. As I've said to my friend Sal Izzo, ya gotta come up with a
prescriptive cookie cutter method using that pex the plumbers use that's
cheap, simple and fast.
As a licensed electrical contractor I can attest to the evolution (I put
the sprinkler tools down in 1982 when we were screwing 6" S40) that the
electrical trade has seen. We started with BX, yea that metal stuff....
too costly, how about plastic, alas we have Romex.....but still metal
boxes and screw clamps....alas plastic boxes just push the wire in no
clamps.........but still those pesky screws on the receps...........alas
"backstabbing" just push the wire into the back of the
receptacle......guess what we may actually see the return of aluminum 12
& 14 romex !, yea some of us remember this from the 60's and 70's.
Evolution I suppose, but society has spoken.
So what say, can the sprinkler industry meet the challenge with a low
cost down and dirty system ?
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ)
New Jersey
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
I said "still" - meaning we already have non-compliant work being
performed.
I am not casting stones at them without casting it at myself first.
If the plumbers or welders or sheetrock finisher's or any other trade
could step in and fix our design and labor shortage; they will then
become part of our industry and we will learn from them or be pushed
out. I consider myself the least of the regular contributors to this
forum and I think I am reasonably intelligent. I have beat my head and
chest to find a solution to the design problem in my own little world
with poor results. I am sure the smarter and more experienced among us
have tried even harder and the results have obviously been the same for
the industry as a whole.
It is not a stretch to say that if another trade can fix our industries'
problems then I personally embrace the help and hope I am wise enough to
learn what they know and implement it in my life.
Thank you,
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George
Church
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Greg, there are enough terrible jobs being done by our own industry that
we should refrain from throwing rocks at mechanicals/plumbers.
I'm sure, like me, you try very hard to toe the line in your sphere of
control, but alas, there are plenty of non-compliant jobs being
installed by sprinkies that are either ignorant or relying on "but
that's what was specified" if not out-and-out greed.
Seriously, how many 30' tall spec/flex buildings are protected to OH2 by
sprinkler guys?
I'm not saying plumbers are the answer, or that they do better or worse
than sprinkler contractors. The reality is we've abandoned the market
segment by never showing up in force.
glc
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 8:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Ok, so their pond has better candidates for designers than our pond
which is the USA? No, they will have unqualified people designing and
you are still going to have AHJ's that do not know the code letting them
get away with inadequate work.
I am sorry but I do not know the answer but bringing in another trade
will get more work done, but not done better.
Thank you,
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Minkel
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 7:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
I think the mechanical contractors are fishing in a way bigger pond
than the sprinkler contractors are.
Bill Minkel, Designer
Western States Fire Protection, Dallas
NFPA Member #2578666
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 6:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
OK, so the plumbers are going to "miraculously" do what the sprinkler
industry can't and immediately discover qualified designers behind the
rocks OR they are going to be able to train them effectively when we can
not?
I am crying foul here - I don't care what code you are using D, R or
full 13, the issue is the same. I know we have spent money and time
trying to train and I am sure you more experienced guys have spent
exponentially more than us "young" guys. The problem is deeper - MANY
Americans do not want to work in ANY field and they definitely REFUSE to
take responsibility for their own lives and careers.
Bring me a person of character and integrity and I can train them and
they will work if they have basic natural ability. I have seen many,
dozens of people with the natural ability fail repeatedly due to
character and integrity issues.
I am sure the plumbers will take and perform the work; but I am even
more certain that they will have the same problems we already do to a
much larger degree and with less accountability.
Thank you,
Greg McGahan
Living Water Fire Protection, LLC
1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533
850-937-1850
Fax: 850-937-1852
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ed Vining
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Not quite. The NEC has the requirements for wiring of fire alarm
systems, but NFPA 72 (laughingly called the National Fire Alarm Code)
stands on its own.
On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 8:56 PM, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Big difference, NFPA 72 is part of the electrical code, or it was the
last time I checked.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John
Drucker
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 8:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
No different then Electrical Contractors that install Line Voltage
Interconnected Smoke/Carbon Monoxide Alarms in Homes versus Alarm
contractors that install Low Voltage Fire Alarm Systems.
Bottom line its about cost. The plumbing contractor who installs
sprinklers
as an extension of the plumbing system is no different then the
electrical
contractor who installs smoke alarms as an extension of the
electrical system.
As for the NFPA, do they really "represent" any particular trade or
merely
fire safety interests as a whole ?
John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official (AHJ) New Jersey
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Leyton
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 7:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers
Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the
dirty little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, depending
on your
perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back about
large plumbing contractors moving into residential sprinklers.
Unless
we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up
our
human
and training resources for designers and installers, it will be
impossible
to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are
inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already
being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis.
Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of
worms Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw advertised,
keep in
mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is
one
of several publications in which they're advertising, along with
Rehau
who
manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at
the moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed at
plumbers,
then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and Contractor
magazine too.
Steve Leyton
Protection Design & Consulting
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Muncy
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers
For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE
that a licensed plumber install the system because they are considered
an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler contractors
are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they
have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed
under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected,
they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal.
Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in
NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that use
use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the
International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi-
purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based on
distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D
committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. By
the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who
recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the
IPC.
Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these systems
in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt
the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will have
a standalone system.
When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the
requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the
appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the number
of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on
the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult
to remove a provision from the code on a local level.
Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007,
each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have to
install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big
this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors
don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more
lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of employees
to.
If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's
just hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the
subject before they jump head-first into the fire protection
business.
Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives!
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote:
> Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an advertiser
> for > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to
install > their > product? I know the answer is money, but I thought
they were looking > out for > our industry and it's standards, both
written and installed.
>
> Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler
> systems?
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Ed Vining
4819 John Muir Rd
Martinez CA 94553
925-228-879
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