Timothy, I'm distressed that you felt anyone was "rubbing your nose in it." I for one am quite proud of how we dealt with the plumbing/sprinkler contractor installer. I like to tell everyone. The funny part was that we were tending towards letting plumbers install 13D systems under their plumbing license but they wouldn't compromise on letting us install the backflow and the little potable spool piece between the UG ductile and the backflow device (even though we or specially licensed UG contractors are the ones who install the UG) without a plumbing license. As you said, fair is fair, and so they now need to also hold a sprinkler license, carry a sprinkler bond, have sprinkler insurance and have at least one certified sprinkler designer on staff just to do business. Soon, because of a new law, they'll need sprinkler certified installers. I think everybody else was just talking about how different jurisdictions approach this issue, that NFPA isn't a sprinkler trade organization nor the NFPA journal a sprinkler trade magazine, and that relative to the plumbing industry the sprinkler industry is a local construction firm looking up at Bechtel. The who does what is always a complex issue and this residential sprinkler thing is no different, What we do know is it's coming and our industry is not prepared to provide the man power. Since we can't (or won't) prepare ourselves isn't it a good idea to prepare the plumbers properly?
On 3/24/08, Timothy W Goins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Not really ;) I was just concerned aboout untrained personell installing a > system that isn't per NFPA standards and passing it off as designed and > installed properly. Where's the automatic cut off valve between the > domestic > and fire in case of a fire, why are they betting on a single head? That's > all I meant. But if you guru's aren't, why should I, right? > > If a plumber has a fire sprinkler license then I call him a fire sprinkler > contractor not a plumber except when he's doing the plumbing of course, > I'm > not completely stupid. > > But when I see 5- 1/2 inch lines going to one sprinkler head I have to > wonder what's going on? When I hear that any domestic water device using > water moves water through "Every" sprinkler line I have to wonder "what > happens to the chemical buid up that I see in regular plumbing lines" > which > is enough to clog a 2" line around here. > > If a plumber can install a fire sprinkler system, why can't a fire > sprinkler > contractor install the plumbing system? I don't want to, but fare is fare, > right? > > I'll let this be my final word, 'cause I'm not smart enough to argue with > you guys. > > Thank you Mr Leyton for NOT rubbing my nose through it like some did. I've > only been in the sprinkler industry for 20 years or so, and I did start > with > a combination plumbing/sprinkler outfit (Licensed for both) but each of > our > departments let the other do what they did best. > > God's speed > > > Timothy > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve > Leyton > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 6:13 PM > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > > > Booyah! Well put, oh great poobah of sprinkie-stuff. This is the dirty > little secret (or 600-lb. gorilla in the living room, depending on your > perspective) that I was alluding to in my rant a few weeks back about > large plumbing contractors moving into residential sprinklers. Unless > we (WE, the fire sprinkler community, inclusive) seriously ramp up our > human > and training resources for designers and installers, it will be impossible > to deal with the flood of proposal requests that are > inevitable. This has been recognized and in some cases is already > being acted upon by certain plumbing firms on a regional basis. > > Back to Timothy's question (aren't you glad you opened THIS can of worms > Tim-bo?); presuming it was a Uponor system you saw advertised, keep in > mind that they're market-making right now. And the NFPA Journal is one > of several publications in which they're advertising, along with Rehau who > manufactures the only other PEX product approved for 13D systems at the > moment. If you don't want to see fire protection ads directed at > plumbers, > then you'll also definitely want to avoid PM Engineer and Contractor > magazine too. > > Steve Leyton > Protection Design & Consulting > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Muncy > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 3:01 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Fire Systems and Plumbers > > For multi-systems, there are currently several states that REQUIRE > that a licensed plumber install the system because they are considered > an extension of the domestic water supply. Fire sprinkler contractors > are PROHIBITED from installing such systems, unless of course they > have a plumbing license -- but the system is still being installed > under the plumbing license. And when those systems are inspected, > they will be inspected by Plumbing officials - not the fire marshal. > > Multi-purpose systems have been been recognized as acceptable in > NFPA-13D for a long time but it was not until fairly recently that use > use accelerated. New changes being incorporated into the > International Plumbing Code offer a simplified design for multi- > purpose systems that does not require hydraulic calcs but is based on > distance and water pressure. My understanding is that the NFPA-13D > committee has accepted the language proposed in the IPC proposal. By > the way, it was the International Association of Fire Chiefs who > recommended the code change to add the simplified procedure to the IPC. > > Bottom line is that you are going to see a lot more of these systems > in the future. It is likely that most "lower-end" homes will adopt > the multi-purpose approach and larger, more expensive homes will have > a standalone system. > > When (not IF) the International Residential Code moves the > requirements for sprinklers in single-family dwellings from the > appendix to the body of the code, thus making it required, the number > of residential systems will EXPLODE. Sure, there will be battles on > the local level to remove that requirement, but it is more difficult > to remove a provision from the code on a local level. > > Think about this - based on the number of new homes built in 2007, > each and every fire sprinkler contractor in the country would have to > install 375 single-family fire sprinkler systems. That is how big > this market will eventually be, and most fire sprinkler contractors > don't do many single-family systems when there are plenty of more > lucrative commercial jobs to dedicate the limited number of employees > to. > > If plumbers are going to do this work.... and they will.... let's just > hope that they feel the need to acquire some TRAINING on the subject > before they jump head-first into the fire protection business. > > > > > Steve Muncy, CAE Fire Sprinklers Save Lives! > American Fire Sprinkler Assn. > Dallas, TX > > > > On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Timothy W Goins wrote: > > Why would the NFPA journal, MAR/APR 2008 edition, use an advertiser > > for > > residential piping systems that ONLY recommends plumbers to install > > their > > product? I know the answer is money, but I thought they were looking > > out for > > our industry and it's standards, both written and installed. > > > > Isn't this like having an architect layout "design" fire sprinkler > > systems? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman at home.... _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
