Steve in an ideal world I would have gotten my degree!!
Seriously there are 4 major battles here in this area:
1) WHATEVER the PE puts on the documents...
a. Make sure it is correct.
b. Make sure it is inclusive (all of the info REQ'D by applicable laws
- in FL it is per 61G15)
c. Make sure all info AGREES -i.e. drawings say one thing and specs
another.
d. Don't box things in unnecessarily - i.e. don't call for 1/2" orifice
sprinklers in a new school that you know is going ot be installed with
Large Orifice EC sprinklers.
2) If it is storage or special occupancy other than light or ordinary
hazard - SPEC the densities etc - that is the intent of the law in Florida.
3) LISTEN to the industry - Don't demand steel pipe in a hotel / motel
because it has always been done that way. If you don't trust a particular
contractor, dig deeper there are too many willing sources for correct info in
this industry.
4) Don't be arrogant when someone calls to ask reasonable questions. Most of
the time the question is good for the PE, it either gives you credibility or
it can prevent you from making a mistake. There are some of us who are
balancing the pursuit of money with doing things right and we are not trying to
pull the wool over your eyes.
In closing please note that the 2 jobs I have worked with you on have been the
exception rather than the rule. You absolutely know what you are doing and are
willing to talk questionable issues out. Thanks for that.
Greg McGahan
Operations Manager
Living Water Fire Protection
1160 McKenzie Road
P.O. Box 877
Cantonment, Florida 32533
(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Kowkabany
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ideal World - What info would you want from a PE
Thanks for all of the excellent feedback.
Steve Kowkabany, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC
616 Davis Street
Neptune Beach, FL 32266
904-652-4200 Phone
904-212-0868 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 5:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Ideal World - What info would you want from a PE
As a contractor minimum I'd want comply with 13 and identification of
materials, methods or details that are different. I'm assuming the arch has
given enough info you (us contractors) can figure out the LH rooms vs. the
OH rooms. Also assumed you have at least a floor, ceiling and structural
plan. For example 13, with no sched 5 pipe, center of tile. Really design
build. This would cover 95% of projects. Even an ME should be able to pull
this off.
For storage I'd add a commodity class and storage configuration detail.
Don't need a density if it's readily in 13. Class III, 16' high, single and
double row racks, wood pallets, no shelves for example. FPE here to set
the class and should know the key terms like single row vs. multi-row or
encapsulated.
For certain customers with special density requirement more than 13 specify
a density. We really should be able to deal with a spec that says for
example 13, with sched 10 or greater pipe, center of tile, sales floor
.35925/2300, room 123 - .2794735/946, rest per 13. Even an ME should be
able to pull this off assuming the insurance or owner spec'ed the odd
density.
That should cover about 99% of projects. It should really be that simple.
Maybe 2 - 8.5" x 11" pages at most.
The 1% will require things like routing, densities, odd issues like water
curtains other than floor openings, Quell, Viking Anti-freeze, schemes for
airplane hangers, flammable liquids, special zoning, pre-action, deluge.
Here no less than an FPE.
Now as an engineer of course the minimum should be your #9 or #10 even for a
2,500 sq.ft. office fully non-combustible construction.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
Waverly, MN 55390
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve
Kowkabany
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 3:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Ideal World - What info would you want from a PE
Since we're on the topic of contract documents, what do the contractors out
there want to see as an ideal level of detail from the PE on plans and
specs? I'll throw out some examples based on what I have seen ranging from
the minimum (which puts the entire design onus on the contractor) to the
maximum (full-blown layout).
1) No design docs - just "design per NFPA 13, 16, 20, 24, etc."
2) Hazard classifications of all areas within the building including
densities to be used, size of remote area, etc. - including design criteria
for special situations like dry storage of boats, special hazards, and other
storage scenarios
3) System type specified - wet, dry, antifreeze, etc.
4) Water supply totally worked out including a coordinated underground
design, backflow preventer location and type, and recent flow test info
5) Code references identified for sources of requirements from local
building codes and fire codes
6) Fire alarm system interface details
7) Structural coordination details such as locations of mains or
standpipes will need to penetrate floors or firewalls
8) Partial layout - such as the location of just mains, or just heads,
or just some system components that are critical to the owner or architect
9) Full blown layout and hydraulic calcs (similar to what white paper
level of detail)
10) Full blown layout plus stocklisting - contractor just fabricates
components and assemblies and entire design responsibility is on the
engineer
In an ideal world, where every engineer and contractor had NICET 4 knowledge
and experience, what would be the ideal level of detail for you as
contractors? Does too much information restrict your ability to be creative
and bid competitively, or would it be better to have completely engineered
drawings to fabricate and install from. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Thanks,
Steve Kowkabany, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC
616 Davis Street
Neptune Beach, FL 32266
904-652-4200 Phone
904-212-0868 Fax
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
