I suggest that if one feels like the requirements are incorrect,
inaccurate, overkill, etc. he ought to not bid the project, qualify his
bid, or bid the project accordingly meeting all of the requirements. What
is at issue here is not the technical merits of sprinkler systems or even
hydraulics. It is contractual. If you cannot meet the requirements, then
pass on this project and move on to ones that are easier and more
profitable. You may as well give up now because you are not going to
convince the government agency of any of the technical expediencies
discussed on the forum. Their requirements are, in some ways, without
merit, but are rigidly enforced from a contractual standpoint.
Thank You
Rahe Loftin, P.E.
Region 7 - GSA
Office - 817-978-7299
Fax - 817-978-8644
Cell - 817-371-3102
"Steve Kowkabany"
<st...@neptunefpe To
.com> <[email protected]>
Sent by: cc
sprinklerforum-bo
un...@firesprinkl Subject
er.org RE: Inadequte Water
09/24/2009 02:17
PM
Please respond to
sprinklerfo...@fi
resprinkler.org
Mark,
Like Steve said, the requirement comes from the UFC codes - section and
verse below
2-3.1.1.1 Hydraulic calculations must include a minimum pressure drop
across
backflow preventers of 12 psi (82.7 kPa), or the actual pressure drop,
whichever is greater, regardless of type or size.
What really gets me about this is that I think this is because they are
afraid that eventually an RPZ will be put in and they want to design for
that, but even some of the new RPZ's now can be designed for less than 12
psi and many times increase can put you into a fire pump. Also, once a
double-check is deemed acceptable as the BFP, very little is likely to
change that would require adding an RPZ - short of adding an antifreeze
loop
or something.
I'm with you on the 3,000 sqft design area. It makes no sense to me. I
could see increasing the density, because suppression is all about delivery
rate, but doubling the design area just adds a lot of unnecessary water in
my opinion.
Any government folks know where those requirements originate from?
Steve Kowkabany, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC
616 Davis Street
Neptune Beach, FL 32266
904-652-4200 Phone
904-212-0868 Fax
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:12 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Inadequte Water
Steve:
Which UFL standard is requiring the 12 psi drop across the backflow? This
is the second time I've heard of this but have not yet had to deal with it
(I don't know why not).
I would LOVE to have a sit-down with the 'powers that be' responsible for
the UFC standards. E.g. where do they get the 3,000 sq.ft design area crap?
They say it's common HPR requirements in the civilian world - except I
worked for FM and we NEVER required 3,000 sq.ft. design areas for light or
ordinary hazard-equivalent occupancies. Maybe they just want to cover
themselves in case a combustible concealed space appears...
Mark A. Sornsin, PE
Fire Protection Engineer
Ulteig Engineers, Inc.
3350 38th Avenue S.
Fargo, ND 58104-7079
Direct: 701. 280.8591
Fax: 701.280.8739
Cell: 701.371.5759
[email protected]
www.ulteig.com
Confidentiality Notice
This message may contain privileged and confidential information. If you
think, for any reason, this message may have been addressed to you in
error,
you must not disseminate copy or take any action in reliance on it, and
we
would ask you to notify me immediately by return email to
[email protected].
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve
Kowkabany
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Inadequte Water
I have the single most frustrating water issue I have ever had going on
right now Greg. I am working on this small commercial entrance facility at
a military base in Georgia. We are only sprinklering a small 3,800 sqft
cargo transfer building and getting the water from the local utility rather
than the base.
We designed based on modeling data that was the only thing available at
design (there was no water within a mile then) and had no problem making
the
small light hazard wet system work.
Last week the underground was finally finished and we had our main run up
to
the building and some nearby hydrants to test, so we tested them - 55/25 at
750 gpm. Bad water but still enough to make an little light hazard wet
system work right?
Not once you take a 3,000 sqft design area, a 500 gpm hose allowance due to
the presence of 300 sqft of OH1 rooms, and a mandatory 12 psi pressure
across the BFP regardless of the fact that it is actually a double-check -
all mandatory per UFC codes. After all that, you need 850 gpm at 40 psi to
make this system work and we are looking at a pump and a tank!
It's a very frustrating situation, so feel free to tell your AHJ he is not
alone.
Steve Kowkabany, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC
616 Davis Street
Neptune Beach, FL 32266
904-652-4200 Phone
904-212-0868 Fax
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.111/2386 - Release Date: 09/24/09
05:52:00
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
_______________________________________________
Sprinklerforum mailing list
[email protected]
http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected]
To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected]
(Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
