Steve, Is this requirement also in a spec, or are you basing this requirement solely on the section of the draft copy of 3-600-10N?
If its the latter, I don't believe that a draft copy of a new UFC series is in enforceable. I stopped doing government work two months ago, so unless something has changed since then, the only thing you have to worry about is 3-600-01 and the project's UFGS spec. If someone from the corps is referencing this standard, I think you may want to ask why they're using a draft document. -Ben On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Steve Kowkabany <[email protected]>wrote: > Mark, > > Like Steve said, the requirement comes from the UFC codes - section and > verse below > > 2-3.1.1.1 Hydraulic calculations must include a minimum pressure drop > across > backflow preventers of 12 psi (82.7 kPa), or the actual pressure drop, > whichever is greater, regardless of type or size. > > What really gets me about this is that I think this is because they are > afraid that eventually an RPZ will be put in and they want to design for > that, but even some of the new RPZ's now can be designed for less than 12 > psi and many times increase can put you into a fire pump. Also, once a > double-check is deemed acceptable as the BFP, very little is likely to > change that would require adding an RPZ - short of adding an antifreeze > loop > or something. > > I'm with you on the 3,000 sqft design area. It makes no sense to me. I > could see increasing the density, because suppression is all about delivery > rate, but doubling the design area just adds a lot of unnecessary water in > my opinion. > > Any government folks know where those requirements originate from? > > > Steve Kowkabany, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC > 616 Davis Street > Neptune Beach, FL 32266 > 904-652-4200 Phone > 904-212-0868 Fax > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark > Sornsin > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:12 AM > To: '[email protected]' > Subject: RE: Inadequte Water > > Steve: > > Which UFL standard is requiring the 12 psi drop across the backflow? This > is the second time I've heard of this but have not yet had to deal with it > (I don't know why not). > > I would LOVE to have a sit-down with the 'powers that be' responsible for > the UFC standards. E.g. where do they get the 3,000 sq.ft design area crap? > They say it's common HPR requirements in the civilian world - except I > worked for FM and we NEVER required 3,000 sq.ft. design areas for light or > ordinary hazard-equivalent occupancies. Maybe they just want to cover > themselves in case a combustible concealed space appears... > > Mark A. Sornsin, PE > Fire Protection Engineer > Ulteig Engineers, Inc. > 3350 38th Avenue S. > Fargo, ND 58104-7079 > > Direct: 701. 280.8591 > Fax: 701.280.8739 > Cell: 701.371.5759 > > [email protected] > www.ulteig.com > > Confidentiality Notice > This message may contain privileged and confidential information. If you > think, for any reason, this message may have been addressed to you in > error, > you must not disseminate copy or take any action in reliance on it, and > we > would ask you to notify me immediately by return email to > [email protected]. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve > Kowkabany > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: Inadequte Water > > I have the single most frustrating water issue I have ever had going on > right now Greg. I am working on this small commercial entrance facility at > a military base in Georgia. We are only sprinklering a small 3,800 sqft > cargo transfer building and getting the water from the local utility rather > than the base. > > We designed based on modeling data that was the only thing available at > design (there was no water within a mile then) and had no problem making > the > small light hazard wet system work. > > Last week the underground was finally finished and we had our main run up > to > the building and some nearby hydrants to test, so we tested them - 55/25 at > 750 gpm. Bad water but still enough to make an little light hazard wet > system work right? > > Not once you take a 3,000 sqft design area, a 500 gpm hose allowance due to > the presence of 300 sqft of OH1 rooms, and a mandatory 12 psi pressure > across the BFP regardless of the fact that it is actually a double-check - > all mandatory per UFC codes. After all that, you need 850 gpm at 40 psi to > make this system work and we are looking at a pump and a tank! > > It's a very frustrating situation, so feel free to tell your AHJ he is not > alone. > > > Steve Kowkabany, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC > 616 Davis Street > Neptune Beach, FL 32266 > 904-652-4200 Phone > 904-212-0868 Fax > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.111/2386 - Release Date: 09/24/09 > 05:52:00 > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email > to:[email protected]<to%[email protected]> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
