The water would probably have to come from the Ice and Trash chutes so filters too. Attached, if I can pull it off, are photos from what happens when trash slams the penstock wickets shout. And you tell me who decides to build a powerhouse in a metal barn building? Apparently I don't have it here. I'll try to remember to send it from home
On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:35 AM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: > Depending on the elevation, might need HP heads. > And at the lowest level, use K2.8 and you'll have a mist system suitable for > the powerhouse. > > Scuppers would be essential! > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:25 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Inadequte Water > > You might have something there George but maybe sidewalls screwed into > the back wall. Pattern development after all. > > On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 7:25 AM, George Church <[email protected]> wrote: >> Wouldn't fusible plugs been able to take care of the powerhouse?? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ron > Greenman >> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 10:10 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: Inadequte Water >> >> Ben, >> >> I've heard that tactic referred to as "Interference of Mission." >> Somewhat like some of the AHJs NOT on this Forum base commanders tend >> to think their positions imbue them with special powers like the >> ability to engineer based on their powers of divination. I once had a >> deputy commander from the Corps tell me you couldn't sprinkler a >> hydroelectric powerhouse because there wasn't enough water. When I >> pointed out he had the second largest river in North America backed up >> behind his dam he told me I couldn't use that water. Maybe he figured >> he needed all that water to run his generators even during a fire. I >> don't know but it was frustrating at the time and an amusing story >> now. >> >> On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 5:10 AM, Ben Young <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> As someone who worked overseas for the military for two years, I can tell >>> you that while that may be the intended goal of the UFC, it is barely >>> enforced overseas. Usually all an installation commander has to do to > get >>> around the requirements of the UFC is to simply make an 'expeditionary' >>> exemption. >>> >>> The UFC may be a great idea, but its execution outside of permanent bases >> in >>> Europe and Japan/Korea is awful. >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> When the UFC was going through it's first iterations I was doing a lot >>>> of work with the Navy and one of the inspectors I was working with was >>>> very involved in commenting on the development of the document. He >>>> often asked for advice or just used me for a sounding board. This >>>> document was developed to meet the needs of the Navy, Army and Air >>>> Force anywhere in the world. There are requirements that far surpass >>>> those of the civilian world and most were debated. This was back in >>>> the mid nineties and you've seen how many drafts there have been >>>> since. This is the military and like a nuclear power plant the usual >>>> rules just don't apply. I hate waste in government as much as anyone >>>> but this is a case where the more stringent requirements were >>>> thoroughly vetted and justified. As a side note there's a few things >>>> that are less onerous than in the civilian standards. Take care. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Rod DiBona <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>>> > Steve, >>>> > >>>> > The 3,000 ft design area is unexplainable. We have just learned that > it >>>> is what it is. These systems just cost more and we make more money. Is > it >>>> good use of taxpayer money...I don't think so but what do you do? If the >>>> system now needs a tank and a pump then sell it to the government and >> again >>>> make more money. I had a similar situation and presented the facts to > the >>>> gov't and when I came with my proposal for tank and pump in hand they >> were >>>> way more willing to negotiate. In my case we "reduced" our hose down to >> 250 >>>> as the building was mainly light hazard and they took away one of the >>>> increasers for either dry or sloped since the area was already increased >> and >>>> then it worked. Bottom line is that it is their requirements and if they >>>> want to enforce it they will have to pay for it. I also have it in my >> mind >>>> that there is an exception to mechanical room hazard classification for >>>> rooms under 400 ft. I think this is why you can run cpvc piping in a >> small >>>> mech room. So if that is the case maybe you can go from 500 to 250 hose. >>>> Doesn't look like it would make the difference for you but it would be >>>> closer. >>>> > >>>> > Rod DiBona >>>> > Rapid Fire >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >>>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Kowkabany >>>> > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 2:24 PM >>>> > To: [email protected] >>>> > Subject: RE: Inadequte Water >>>> > >>>> > Ben, >>>> > >>>> > I've had this referenced and enforced by the Navy twice in the last 3 >>>> > months. Even if it is a draft, we are abiding by what the government >>>> says >>>> > as they are the AHJ for these projects. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Steve Kowkabany, P.E. >>>> > Fire Protection Engineer >>>> > Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC >>>> > 616 Davis Street >>>> > Neptune Beach, FL 32266 >>>> > 904-652-4200 Phone >>>> > 904-212-0868 Fax >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -----Original Message----- >>>> > From: [email protected] >>>> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ben >> Young >>>> > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 3:32 PM >>>> > To: [email protected] >>>> > Subject: Re: Inadequte Water >>>> > >>>> > Steve, >>>> > >>>> > Is this requirement also in a spec, or are you basing this requirement >>>> > solely on the section of the draft copy of 3-600-10N? >>>> > >>>> > If its the latter, I don't believe that a draft copy of a new UFC >> series >>>> is >>>> > in enforceable. I stopped doing government work two months ago, so >>>> unless >>>> > something has changed since then, the only thing you have to worry >> about >>>> is >>>> > 3-600-01 and the project's UFGS spec. >>>> > >>>> > If someone from the corps is referencing this standard, I think you > may >>>> want >>>> > to ask why they're using a draft document. >>>> > >>>> > -Ben >>>> > >>>> > On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Steve Kowkabany >>>> > <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Mark, >>>> >> >>>> >> Like Steve said, the requirement comes from the UFC codes - section >> and >>>> >> verse below >>>> >> >>>> >> 2-3.1.1.1 Hydraulic calculations must include a minimum pressure drop >>>> >> across >>>> >> backflow preventers of 12 psi (82.7 kPa), or the actual pressure > drop, >>>> >> whichever is greater, regardless of type or size. >>>> >> >>>> >> What really gets me about this is that I think this is because they >> are >>>> >> afraid that eventually an RPZ will be put in and they want to design >> for >>>> >> that, but even some of the new RPZ's now can be designed for less > than >>>> 12 >>>> >> psi and many times increase can put you into a fire pump. Also, once >> a >>>> >> double-check is deemed acceptable as the BFP, very little is likely > to >>>> >> change that would require adding an RPZ - short of adding an >> antifreeze >>>> >> loop >>>> >> or something. >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm with you on the 3,000 sqft design area. It makes no sense to me. >> I >>>> >> could see increasing the density, because suppression is all about >>>> > delivery >>>> >> rate, but doubling the design area just adds a lot of unnecessary >> water >>>> in >>>> >> my opinion. >>>> >> >>>> >> Any government folks know where those requirements originate from? >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Steve Kowkabany, P.E. >>>> >> Fire Protection Engineer >>>> >> Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC >>>> >> 616 Davis Street >>>> >> Neptune Beach, FL 32266 >>>> >> 904-652-4200 Phone >>>> >> 904-212-0868 Fax >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: [email protected] >>>> >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark >>>> >> Sornsin >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:12 AM >>>> >> To: '[email protected]' >>>> >> Subject: RE: Inadequte Water >>>> >> >>>> >> Steve: >>>> >> >>>> >> Which UFL standard is requiring the 12 psi drop across the backflow? >>>> This >>>> >> is the second time I've heard of this but have not yet had to deal >> with >>>> it >>>> >> (I don't know why not). >>>> >> >>>> >> I would LOVE to have a sit-down with the 'powers that be' responsible >>>> for >>>> >> the UFC standards. E.g. where do they get the 3,000 sq.ft design area >>>> > crap? >>>> >> They say it's common HPR requirements in the civilian world - except > I >>>> >> worked for FM and we NEVER required 3,000 sq.ft. design areas for >> light >>>> or >>>> >> ordinary hazard-equivalent occupancies. Maybe they just want to cover >>>> >> themselves in case a combustible concealed space appears... >>>> >> >>>> >> Mark A. Sornsin, PE >>>> >> Fire Protection Engineer >>>> >> Ulteig Engineers, Inc. >>>> >> 3350 38th Avenue S. >>>> >> Fargo, ND 58104-7079 >>>> >> >>>> >> Direct: 701. 280.8591 >>>> >> Fax: 701.280.8739 >>>> >> Cell: 701.371.5759 >>>> >> >>>> >> [email protected] >>>> >> www.ulteig.com >>>> >> >>>> >> Confidentiality Notice >>>> >> This message may contain privileged and confidential information. If >> you >>>> >> think, for any reason, this message may have been addressed to you in >>>> >> error, >>>> >> you must not disseminate copy or take any action in reliance on it, >>>> and >>>> >> we >>>> >> would ask you to notify me immediately by return email to >>>> >> [email protected]. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: [email protected] >>>> >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve >>>> >> Kowkabany >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 AM >>>> >> To: [email protected] >>>> >> Subject: RE: Inadequte Water >>>> >> >>>> >> I have the single most frustrating water issue I have ever had going >> on >>>> >> right now Greg. I am working on this small commercial entrance >> facility >>>> > at >>>> >> a military base in Georgia. We are only sprinklering a small 3,800 >> sqft >>>> >> cargo transfer building and getting the water from the local utility >>>> > rather >>>> >> than the base. >>>> >> >>>> >> We designed based on modeling data that was the only thing available >> at >>>> >> design (there was no water within a mile then) and had no problem >> making >>>> >> the >>>> >> small light hazard wet system work. >>>> >> >>>> >> Last week the underground was finally finished and we had our main > run >>>> up >>>> >> to >>>> >> the building and some nearby hydrants to test, so we tested them - >> 55/25 >>>> > at >>>> >> 750 gpm. Bad water but still enough to make an little light hazard >> wet >>>> >> system work right? >>>> >> >>>> >> Not once you take a 3,000 sqft design area, a 500 gpm hose allowance >> due >>>> > to >>>> >> the presence of 300 sqft of OH1 rooms, and a mandatory 12 psi > pressure >>>> >> across the BFP regardless of the fact that it is actually a >> double-check >>>> - >>>> >> all mandatory per UFC codes. After all that, you need 850 gpm at 40 >> psi >>>> > to >>>> >> make this system work and we are looking at a pump and a tank! >>>> >> >>>> >> It's a very frustrating situation, so feel free to tell your AHJ he > is >>>> not >>>> >> alone. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Steve Kowkabany, P.E. >>>> >> Fire Protection Engineer >>>> >> Neptune Fire Protection Engineering LLC >>>> >> 616 Davis Street >>>> >> Neptune Beach, FL 32266 >>>> >> 904-652-4200 Phone >>>> >> 904-212-0868 Fax >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> >> [email protected] >>>> >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >> >>>> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >> >>>> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> > >> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >> sprinkler.org> >>>> <to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >>>> > sprinkler.org> >>>> >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.111/2386 - Release Date: >>>> > 09/24/09 >>>> >> 05:52:00 >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> >> [email protected] >>>> >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >> >>>> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >> >>>> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> > >> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >> sprinkler.org> >>>> <to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >>>> > sprinkler.org> >>>> >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> > >>>> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> > >>>> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> >> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >> sprinkler.org> >>>> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> > No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.111/2386 - Release Date: >>>> 09/24/09 >>>> > 05:52:00 >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> > >>>> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> > >>>> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> >> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >> sprinkler.org> >>>> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> > Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> > [email protected] >>>> > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> > >>>> > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> > >>>> > To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> >> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >> sprinkler.org> >>>> > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ron Greenman >>>> Instructor >>>> Fire Protection Engineering >>>> Bates Technical College >>>> Tacoma, WA >>>> >>>> Member: >>>> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> > to:[email protected]<to%3asprinklerforum-requ...@fire >> sprinkler.org> >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering >> Bates Technical College >> Tacoma, WA >> >> Member: >> SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering > Bates Technical College > Tacoma, WA > > Member: > SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
