"Anyone in NY know what happened to the bad guy in this one from the recent
past?"
Do we know there was a bad guy? Bad things happen every day without a bad
guy. I concede most bad things come with bad guys but not all. Do we even
know how the fire started? I know nothing about the incident other than
some form of sprinklers, some level of care needed for residents and some
deaths. Was it arson, were the care givers cooking meth, were they drunk on
the couch and ignored the smoke detectors, were the SD's disabled from
breakfast prep. Serious the sprinklers and the installer and the EOR (which
I'd bet doesn't exist) may not have had anything to do with it. Did the
owner move in residents that didn't belong there?
Where were the Gov't officials in this? Aren't they potential bad guys?
If the private sector did indeed screw up what about the various AHJ's and
insurance underwriter. Wasn't there one unsprinklered in TN or KY a few
years ago where the Fire Chief's mother resided? Come on, a fire safety
professional housing mom in an unsprinklered nursing home?
And remember this might be a retrofit situation and have been perfectly
legal. Yes, I understand legal <> moral or ethical. It's certainly a good
place to start. The law is said to be a reflection of our collective
values. I'd bet there are more people alive today by sacrificing for 13D
retrofit in assisted care than would otherwise be if we waited out the cost
of higher standards. In the 80's we/society de-institutionalized people
because we felt with the cost and risks of living in a home environment was
better in the big picture. There are pros and cons, death by fire being
more probable being a major con. We accepted this. We/society cannot
afford to save everyone from everything. I'll look at the big picture and
not call foul looking at just one very, very tiny example.
And if one wants to use "difficult or impossible to evacuate" as a test for
13D well what say you to kids under 6 like last week in MS. Wouldn't that
bunch have been "difficult or impossible to evacuate" with a 13D system? Is
the Kate and 8 house sprinklered? How about the 20 something in AL (or
wherever that is)? I have an 8 and 10 yo and I'm not confident in a real
situation they would react properly. And yes, just yesterday we reviewed
safety issues for his Cub Scout badge. He knows all the right answers on
the couch but at 3am? Remember the news investigation reports a few years
ago where kids didn't even hear smoke detectors never mind appropriately
react?
Hell we can't get drunk drivers off the road that kill and you want to get
Dennis the Coverplate Gluer. Seriously, it's the character of the man that
causes bad behavior. Clearly the Gluer family has no redeeming character,
wouldn't matter what industry he was in.
I am mostly playing devil's advocate until I have enough information to make
a judgment on the case. And unfortunately the legal I'm sure will tie that
up so we can never learn. Please direct me if there is good credible
information.
Chris Cahill, P.E.
Fire Protection Engineer
Sentry Fire Protection, Inc.
763-658-4483
763-658-4921 fax
Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com
Mail: P.O. Box 69
Waverly, MN 55390
Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW
Waverly, MN 55390
-----Original Message-----
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Group 'I' Occupancies
That "difficult or impossible to evacuate" phrase cost a lot of lives in NY
State when a group home was protected (over the contractor's objections) to
13D when numerous residents were difficult or impossible to evacuate and
staff couldn't do the impossible. They simply needed more than 10 minutes to
clear the building and didn't have it.
Never heard what happened as penalty for the EOR that reiterated the mistake
of 13d when the objection was raised.
BROADCASTING THAT PENALTY, if commiserate with the resultant loss of life in
the building for what appears to be an obvious failure to properly analyze
the protection levels with the residents' needs and staff's abilities, would
do more to stop incompetent Professionals from practicing outside their area
of competence more than anything else we could do.
Anyone in NY know what happened to the bad guy in this one from the recent
past? I'd sure like to know. Hopefully it is more than what happened to
Dennis the Coverplate Gluer (apologies to Mr Zevon) who is now working for
his brother in northern California, I hear, installing sprinklers. There
ought to be a way for bad guys to be drummed out of this industry. Like the
union activist who capped piping in walls on its way to dorm room
sprinklers, so there was no supply to the sprinklers in the rooms, and if
there was a fire in the rooms affected by this criminal action, the
residents could have died in a room protected by residential sprinklers.
That guy, Mr Brian Beyer, should also be prohibited from hanging pipe again.
So if you know of Brian and he's hanging pipe, you might want to let his
boss know the man has no scruples against raping the integrity of an
installation if it suits his purpose. I was told that Brian was not working
with any directive from the union to sabotage the installation nor would
they have allowed sabotage like this......but it happened, and in more than
one room.
This certainly doesn't mean small group homes can't be properly protected
with 13d- just that the protection level must be commiserate with the risk.
glc
-----Original Message-----
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:37 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Group 'I' Occupancies
2006 IBC
903.2.5 Group I. An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided
throughout buildings with a Group I fire area.
Exception: An automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with
Section 903.3.1.2 or 903.3.1.3 shall be allowed in Group I-1 facilities.
308.2 Group I-1. This occupancy shall include buildings,structures or
parts thereof housing more than 16 persons, on a 24-hour basis, who
because of age, mental disability or other reasons, live in a supervised
residential environment that provides personal care services. The
occupants are capable of responding to an emergency situation without
physical assistance from staff. This group shall include, but not be
limited to, the following:
Residential board and care facilities
Assisted living facilities
Halfway houses
Group homes
Congregate care facilities
Social rehabilitation facilities
Alcohol and drug centers
Convalescent facilities
A facility such as the above with five or fewer persons shall
be classified as a Group R-3 or shall comply with the International
Residential Code in accordance with Section 101.2. A
facility such as above, housing at least six and not more than 16
persons, shall be classified as Group R-4.
So when is an "I-1" not an "I-1" ? Pay special attention to the
operative stipulation; "The occupants are capable of responding to an
emergency situation without physical assistance from staff."
Hope that helps,
John Drucker Jr.
Fire Protection Subcode Official
Borough of Red Bank, NJ
-----Original Message-----
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ralphy
Henderson
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 1:10 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Group 'I' Occupancies
Are Group i occupancies (10 bed assisted living) considered 13 criteria
or 13R?
Seeing how it's a group "i" and not an "R" I would say that 13R doesn't
apply but what's the consensus here? I've seen some smaller Group I's (5
bed or less) considered as 13D when they're hospices that are in a
person's home but not 10 bed in a new building.
Thanks,
RH
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