I don't think they technically need to be listed FOR FIRE. In the AF section it simply says listed. Clearly it needs to be listed for its intended purpose. An expansion chamber has no material function in the suppression duties of a sprinkler system. Its intended purpose is the regulation of pressure due to expansion of fluid in an otherwise sealed container. An expansion tank doesn't know it's connected to a sprinkler system vs. a heating system. Therefore, listings from other industries I think in this case are acceptable. I add the caveat of 6.1.3 for system components to be rated for not less than 175.
This differs in the pipe section 6.3.6 where it requires listing FOR FIRE. FWIW I spoke with some other folks and based on the suppliers in these parts providing the 100 psi models almost exclusively and there is only one case of these failing it seems like they are performing even if not properly rated. I'd guess we're not seeing a systemic problem because it relates to a service listing of 100 psi but a testing rating usually much higher. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 1:51 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: AF Expansion Tanks There are tons of them for wells plumbing and hydronic heating, but none that I know of are listed for fire. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:50 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: AF Expansion Tanks I don't know the mfg. I think they use them in the plumbing industry? I think I recall something similar on the boiler for the baseboard hot water system I grew up with. Maybe there are other plumbing uses? Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 11:08 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: AF Expansion Tanks Only know of Fire x Trol and Young Mfg. both rated at 175# per 13, who has a listed 100 PSI expansion tank? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 7:09 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: AF Expansion Tanks Not taking listed vs. unlisted. They may be as good but the cheap versions are only listed to 100 psi. It doesn't take a lot of temperature change to exceed 100 psi. And in this case I have 115 static. And even if I had the more typical 50 psi the general requirement is everything on the system side of a sprinkler system must be listed to 175. If a compressor fails at any point including during a fire it's not a big deal. If one responds to the low air alarm nothing happens. If they ignore the low air alarm the system trips until the water gets to freezing conditions it will still put out a fire and doesn't break the piping causing water on the ground. An expansion tank fails and you have a big mess to report to your insurance company and if it's only listed to 100 psi you will be paying for the loss. If listed to 175 you have a fighting chance to avoid payment. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 6:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: AF Expansion Tanks Everything I have looked at says that the "cheap" ones are as good as the listed ones. We have NEVER used a non-listed one outside of 13D but I certainly do think it is ridiculous that an air compressor does not have to be listed but an expansion chamber does? Greg -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: AF Expansion Tanks 13 Chris -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 2:05 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: AF Expansion Tanks 13 or 13D? Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 1:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: AF Expansion Tanks Anyone got a source for correct ones that aren't so expensive. 100 psi 5 gal about $70 (plumbers version). 2.5 gal from Firetrol(?) or Youngs in the $600+ range. Is this what you've been doing on AF systems? My supplier tells me they sell a lot of the plumber's versions and almost none of the correct ones. And yet I don't hear of problems. Could be my hearing, could be no problems. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: [email protected] Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
