Brad, I hate to read "sprinkler system fails" more than I hate "sprinkler system causes water damage." Partial systems, like abandoned components that are left in place convey a sense of security to the unwashed that isn't really there. The code says all areas shall be sprinklered and then has the exceptions that are no longer called exceptions, but these don't constitute a partial system meaning part of a building. Partial systems were at one time OK in many situations and so the code still addresses issues with them. The code also says that all systems will be attached to a reliable, automatic water supply but I know of at least two buildings in Rich's Seattle, one in the U District and the other in the International District, that have no water supply but instead rely on the FDC as a source. I suspect there are more. How about the 30 year firefighter that Rich talks of that doesn't hook up to one of these. Codes typically address now while old codes address then. Unfortunately we still have old stuff now and so need to sort things out rather than say one size fits all. I'm in a building that today would be sprinklered but is only sprinklered on the bottom floor because at the time the building wasn't required to be sprinklered but the bottom floor was because it's on a hillside and 50% is below grade making for limited egress. Lucky me, I'm down there. I'm happy to trade egress for sprinklers any day.
On Mon, May 10, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Brad <[email protected]> wrote: > Right on! I just reversed my original 'Prohibited' position- once I thought > about the un-monitored part- the best thing about an FDC is it is the only > source if the control valve is closed! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richardson, R [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:42 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > I am not a firefighter myself, but have worked around many for over 10 > years, most of whom have never even hooked up to a sprinkler only FDC, 30 > year career types in many cases. Seems that the sprinklers do such a fine > job there is not much to take care of. > > Rich Richardson > Seattle Fire Department > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 07:37 > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > Thanks Rich, > What do you Fire Dept people think about taking the time to connect to an > FDC that serves a limited area? Limited area does not require to be > monitored- although there will be local audible alarm- I guess when you get > there, if the bell is ringing, and you need to, go ahead and take the time > to connect? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richardson, R [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:22 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > If the scenario is AHJ say so - we do it, no questions allowed, then make > the AHJ decide this question as well. Seems kind of hard to consult for a > project when there is an unbridled authority making up stuff in the first > place. > > Personally if I were the consultant and was not inclined to question the > AHJ, I would not specify an FDC in this situation. > > Rich Richardson > Seattle Fire Department > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 07:06 > To: Richardson, R; [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > Cooler/freezer with combustible insulating panels > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richardson, R [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 9:03 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > If it is in the consulting stage maybe the client would be better served to > have the AHJ questioned as to the "legality" of the requirement. > > Your statement that the "The bldg is 'too small to REQUIRE sprinks', but > the AHJ wants some heads in a particular area." is worthy of further > exploration. > > What exactly is the hazard at issue here anyways? > > Rich Richardson > Seattle Fire Department > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 06:43 > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > Thanks Thom ,George, Chris, > Sorry for the delayed reply- I do not have IAH (internet at home). > The area is actually quite a bit less than 2000 SF. The bldg is 'too small > to REQUIRE sprinks', but the AHJ wants some heads in a particular area. EC > is correct to stay less than 20, though, bcoz there is some 'above and > below'. All heads will be calc'd (on one level). It is in the consulting > stage, so by the time it is bid, the Sprink will know whether or not to > include the FDC. I took the '2000 SF building' to mean 2000 SF of > sprinklers, remembered we deal with emergency situations, and thought about > the 'probable waste of time' thing for Limited Area sprinklers. > Thanks again, > Brad > -----Original Message----- > From: George Church [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 3:55 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > What about the adjacent and unprotected combustible concealed space- doesn't > that mean you calc 3,000 SF of that 2,000 SF area? > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:35 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected]; 'Chris > Cahill' > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > Use EC heads and you'll still be under the 20 by a long way. > > Thom McMahon, SET > Firetech, Inc. > 2560 Copper Ridge Dr > P.O. Box 882136 > Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 > Tel: 970-879-7952 > Fax: 970-879-7926 > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:55 AM > To: 'Chris Cahill'; [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > Good thoughts Chris, thanks. > Now for a specific- Bldg code calls for 1 story, not over 2000 SQ FT - no > FDC required-- what about a 4000 SF bldg (sprinklers not Required, but AHJ > wants a limited area (less than 2000 SF) sprinklered)-- I know it is up to > him/her on the FDC, what are your thoughts? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Cahill [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 12:40 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > Even if the fire isn't in the area it doesn't harm anything to hook up to > it. They will bring the system pressure up to 150 psi and it will be > static. The sign is already required. > > Now if you want to debate FDC's and are they really needed on any system > then sure. Talking simple sprinklers not standpipes. Think if it this way > how many times does an FDC make a difference in the outcome? I suspect not > often. But in the grand scheme FDC's are not a big portion $$$ of a job so > we'll just keep them. > > Chris Cahill, P.E. > Fire Protection Engineer > Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. > > 763-658-4483 > 763-658-4921 fax > > Email: [email protected] > > Mail: P.O. Box 69 > Waverly, MN 55390 > > Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW > Waverly, MN 55390 > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brad > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 12:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: FDC on Limited Area Sprinklers > > What do you Forumites think about this? I think an fdc should be PROHIBITED > on Limited Area systems- > > Probable waste of time is the reason. I guess an exception could be if there > is a laminated diagram posted at the FDC- 'Attention Fireman- > > Unless the fire is in THIS area, do NOT connect' > > Thanks, > > Brad > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
