I can't agree with your logic although I think I understand the point you are making. In my opinion the design is not finished until the PE stamp is applied. At that point the PE takes responsibility for all that has gone into the job. I don't feel this is even questionable. However, if you are assuming this practice is always performed by someone not qualified, then you are into another area of discussion. In this case, the PE stamp would not be valid if the engineer walked the site, performed the flow test, measured the building, drafted the drawing, pulled the catalog cuts together, performed the calculations, and made the coffee.
Bill Brooks William N. Brooks, P.E. Brooks Fire Protection Engineering Inc. 372 Wilett Drive Severna Park, MD 21146-1904 410-544-3620 410-544-3032 FAX 412-400-6528 Cell -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:54 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Regardless of a contractor's intentions, good or otherwise, I have a problem with this whole process as described. Getting a PE to stamp something, AFTER the fact, AFTER it has been already been designed, is NOT KOSHER, or at least questionable at best, especially if the PE is not qualified/experienced with fire protection. This is a violation of the PE law in most if not all states, and certainly the spirit of the NICET Code of Ethics as well. While it is obvious that Bobby's Company's intentions are good, I am certain that a LARGE number of contractors out there do not understand the legal issues involved, and view the need for a PE stamp as just one more obstacle, one more thing to do to get a permit, just another nuisance cost, and do exactly what I have described, go and get some PE, any PE that is willing for a small fee, to stamp their drawings AFTER the FACT. This is wrong, it is unethical, and illegal for both the PE and the contractor, and god forbid something happens on one of those jobs, and everyone gets called to court, or your insurance company finds out. You think you're covered, but you're not. The stamp was obtained illegally, and therefore your professional liability and errors and omissions coverage is denied. This is not another PE vs. layout technician thing. Rather, this is a statement that if a PE is required, then do it correctly. Just my 2-cents. Sorry for the rant, and no offense intended towards Bobby. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Lately we have had projects that require us to provide PE stamps. The last few projects, we were informed after award of contract and before submittal that we had to have a PE stamp on our drawings. We have a local PE that will do this, so we send in a change and get him to review and then approve. When he looks at them he researches the project, design build or not, and makes sure that everything is done per code before he will sign off. Some of the projects have a PE on record for the fire protection portion of the project and still want us to provide a PE stamp before submittal, that's the one that I do not understand; if they are the engineer of record for the fire protection on the project, why won't they do like they used to and review and stamp once it is approved through them? We have even bid a few that require this in the specs. now - even if the FP portion is engineered from the beginning. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Craig, Sounds like someone has some "splainin" to do Lucy. Just because something is done as a design-build project would not somehow negate the need for a PE. In fact, just the opposite would hold true. Design-build implies PE involvement. In addition, if I was the AHJ, at this point, it is already designed (and perhaps in for permit and rejected), and now you want to add a PE and come back with the same design stamped by a PE, I would reject that as well, as it is obvious the PE just stamped the plans after the fact, and did not do or supervise the design. Good luck. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:02 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question What if it was done by a contractor as a design-build project? No PE involved. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dale Wingard Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 8:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Craig, He has to be a PE. It is normally the Engineer that is part of the original design of the project. Dale F. Wingard, SET Design Manager Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. 251.649.2034 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Louisiana Professional of Record question I need to know from someone who regularly works in Louisiana what the submittal procedure is if drawings are produced for an owner from an outside design firm who is not the installing contractor. Is a POR required to be a PE? Where are the qualifications listed for the POR in relation to sprinkler shop drawings? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _____ No virus found in this message. 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