Also, you stated "Seems to me the design doesn't exist until the PE signs the drawing and supporting paper (like spec's, calc's, etc). A signed drawing is a design everything else up to that point is?...but random lines on a paper? How the design got to exist is semantics?
I cannot disagree more. Just because someone went and got a PE, any willing page stamper to seal their drawing does NOT make it a design at that point. It is not a legal design if the stamp is not legit, i.e. stamped by a QUALIFIED PE. ALL that it means is that they tried to "game" the system to get their permit. How is the public safety served by such abuse? Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 6:57 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Maybe it's a definition of design that will help clear this up. I'm a little lost at what Jeff takes issue with. How is any of this different than a tech, NICET or otherwise, qualified (which is subjective) or not, putting together a plan and giving it to his boss, the PE, for correction, comment, improvement and/or signature? Seems this issue isn't even a FP issue but a question of all engineering. Seems to me the design doesn't exist until the PE signs the drawing and supporting paper (like spec's, calc's, etc). A signed drawing is a design everything else up to that point is?...but random lines on a paper? How the design got to exist is semantics? Seems there is little difference whether the PE and techs are employed by the same company. I once learned the standard ratio is 5 techs per PE (all engineering not just FPE). Although I suspect that is a little outdated. For example "I hereby certify that this plan, specification, or report was prepared by me or under my direct supervision and that I am a Professional Engineer under the laws of the State of Minnesota." Are we talking the definition of 'direct'? The MN PE Board ruled on a complaint I filed 10-12 years ago that a PE located MI (and lic in MN) could in fact sign the work admittedly done here by a non-PE. I can't quote the exact wording but it was to the effect they could not rule on the point of direct supervision as there were nearly infinite ways to accomplish direct supervision. Once signed it was then a design qualified by the PE and how it got to exist they weren't really interested in. If you are speaking of SFPE white paper on PE and Tech's role in design there are few states following this model that I know of. As a matter of fact the MN PE board dismissed the PE's role in sprinklers a long time ago. I don't consider the MN Board much different than the average Board. I know of some better, some worse, certainly don't know all. On Bobby's statement "He does his job all the way through, and at that point he will not stamp our drawings - he creates his own, calculates them himself and then stamps his drawings." Why, if it's all right? Sounds like a marketing issue not an engineering one. I suppose that is a reason as justifiable as some others I can't think of. Does he do this as well for any techs working for him? Sounds to me like he needs new techs if so. Chris Cahill -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:21 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Bobby, If your engineer is making changes to your design and is redrawing for submittal, all the better, but I was not referring to you or your company. It sounds like you have someone that is qualified to perform these duties, and do it in a legal and ethical way. My statement is about this process in general, not about you specifically. You cannot tell me that what I described does not occur everyday all over this country, by those that either do not know, are willing to risk it, or do not care, and not just in our field of fire protection. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question I disagree. The Arch/Eng and owner require us to get a PE stamp. Yes that does create another obstacle, but we have a Mechanical (including fire protection) PE available locally that is used as the FP engineer of record by many architects on new projects in our area. When it is required, we hire him to do ours and he wants all of the specs and drawings, as well as the contacts for all involved. He researches the entire project to make sure that the fire protection is correct to the application, codes and area - including other things I am sure I am not aware of. He does his job all the way through, and at that point he will not stamp our drawings - he creates his own, calculates them himself and then stamps his drawings. These are now the drawings that are used for submittal and the project, all the way to As-Builts. If there are any re-submittals or changes necessary to his drawings, he does them - all of this is part of his fee. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:54 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Regardless of a contractor's intentions, good or otherwise, I have a problem with this whole process as described. Getting a PE to stamp something, AFTER the fact, AFTER it has been already been designed, is NOT KOSHER, or at least questionable at best, especially if the PE is not qualified/experienced with fire protection. This is a violation of the PE law in most if not all states, and certainly the spirit of the NICET Code of Ethics as well. While it is obvious that Bobby's Company's intentions are good, I am certain that a LARGE number of contractors out there do not understand the legal issues involved, and view the need for a PE stamp as just one more obstacle, one more thing to do to get a permit, just another nuisance cost, and do exactly what I have described, go and get some PE, any PE that is willing for a small fee, to stamp their drawings AFTER the FACT. This is wrong, it is unethical, and illegal for both the PE and the contractor, and god forbid something happens on one of those jobs, and everyone gets called to court, or your insurance company finds out. You think you're covered, but you're not. The stamp was obtained illegally, and therefore your professional liability and errors and omissions coverage is denied. This is not another PE vs. layout technician thing. Rather, this is a statement that if a PE is required, then do it correctly. Just my 2-cents. Sorry for the rant, and no offense intended towards Bobby. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bobby Gillett Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:20 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Lately we have had projects that require us to provide PE stamps. The last few projects, we were informed after award of contract and before submittal that we had to have a PE stamp on our drawings. We have a local PE that will do this, so we send in a change and get him to review and then approve. When he looks at them he researches the project, design build or not, and makes sure that everything is done per code before he will sign off. Some of the projects have a PE on record for the fire protection portion of the project and still want us to provide a PE stamp before submittal, that's the one that I do not understand; if they are the engineer of record for the fire protection on the project, why won't they do like they used to and review and stamp once it is approved through them? We have even bid a few that require this in the specs. now - even if the FP portion is engineered from the beginning. Bobby Gillett Sr. Project Manager Key Fire Protection, Inc. (731) 424-0130 office (731) 424-9285 fax (731) 267-4853 cell <mailto:[email protected]> [email protected] _____ From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jeff Hewitt Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 11:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Craig, Sounds like someone has some "splainin" to do Lucy. Just because something is done as a design-build project would not somehow negate the need for a PE. In fact, just the opposite would hold true. Design-build implies PE involvement. In addition, if I was the AHJ, at this point, it is already designed (and perhaps in for permit and rejected), and now you want to add a PE and come back with the same design stamped by a PE, I would reject that as well, as it is obvious the PE just stamped the plans after the fact, and did not do or supervise the design. Good luck. Jeff Hewitt, PE, SET, SFPE (Professional Member) Corporate Engineer Bi-State Fire Protection Corporation 241 Hughes Lane St. Charles, MO 63301 636-946-0011 636-946-5172 (fax) 314-574-6989 (cell) Fire Sprinklers Save lives. Can You Live Without Them? -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 10:02 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question What if it was done by a contractor as a design-build project? No PE involved. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dale Wingard Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 8:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Louisiana Professional of Record question Craig, He has to be a PE. It is normally the Engineer that is part of the original design of the project. Dale F. Wingard, SET Design Manager Triple "A" Fire Protection, Inc. 251.649.2034 [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 5:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Louisiana Professional of Record question I need to know from someone who regularly works in Louisiana what the submittal procedure is if drawings are produced for an owner from an outside design firm who is not the installing contractor. Is a POR required to be a PE? Where are the qualifications listed for the POR in relation to sprinkler shop drawings? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 CH2MHILL Extension 74102 [email protected] _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3291 - Release Date: 12/01/10 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3291 - Release Date: 12/01/10 _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
