Ron,
The building was possibility built using NFPA 101, Paragraph 18.1.6.5 "Any
building of Type I(442), Type I(332), Type II(222), or Type II(111)
construction shall be permitted to include roofing systems involving
combustible supports, decking, or roofing, provided that the following criteria
are met:
(1) The roof covering shall meet Class A requirements in accordance with
NFPA 256, Standard Methods of Fire Tests of Roof Coverings.
(2) The roof shall be separated from all occupied portions of the building
by a noncombustible floor assembly having not less than a 2-hour fire
resistance rating that includes not less than 2½ in. (63 mm) of concrete or
gypsum fill.
(3) The structural elements supporting the 2-hour fire resistance-rated
floor assembly specified in 18.1.6.5(2) shall be required to have only the fire
resistance rating required of the building."
We usually try to convince the Owner that providing automatic sprinkler
protection for the attic would allow for an orderly evacuation of the patients
since the sprinkler will usually control an fire from within the attic, and an
non-sprinklered attic would usually require the complete evacuation of the
floor below the attic, which requires more manpower and emergency response
personal.
Jim Davidson
Davidson Associates
Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting
302-994-9500 Fax:302-234-1781
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE
So let's split the frog hair one more time. If the attic is another floor of
the building because it has a door and a floor do the egress rules apply?
Should the sprinkler contractor tell the GC that he has to add an exit to
outside or another stair because it should really be considered a floor, not an
attic as the labeled on the permitted plans? I buy the need for sprinklers
because it's accessible for storage but I don't agree that it is by IBC rule
another story of the building.
Some years ago we did a three floor extended care facility. The floors were
concrete plank as was the ceiling of the top floor. The construction was none
combustible. The only door to the attic was on a 2nd floor mezzanine in the
neighboring 2 story wing of the building. The attic was at least 20 ft. high 50
ft wide, over 300 ft long and the roof sloped from the peak all the way to the
floor. There were no lights and no duct just wide open space. We gave the GC a
price to add sprinklers he said that if they were required we would have to put
them in for free. The space does not have sprinklers. We went on record about
it being labeled attic not storage and not a floor according to the permitted
plans. I hope they never have a fire.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Thom
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE
The difference I see is that an "Attic" is between the ceiling of one floor
and the roof. Where-as what we were presented with is a concrete floor and
an exposed roof structure, which the code not the Arch. Calls a "story".
Arch. Are famous for calling things on the drawing one thing while the code
requires them to be protected as something else entirely.
I especially like when in a warehouse the put "Future Office" with dotted
lines, and want to know why the OH system must go over their LH office area.
The other point I'd make, in ref. to the LH vs. OH space is anything with a
concrete floor and a door will eventually become storage. An attic is
allowed to be LH because it is not "Easy" or convenient to store stuff in
it. The area as described sound both easily accessible and convenient to
access thru the door.
The "Attic" theory could apply IF the concrete floor is the ceiling of a
floor below, and doesn't have the means of access required to be considered
a Mezz. Or floor by the building code. That door must come from somewhere,
is that another "Floor"?? So this would just be an extension of that floor?
As far as what does combustible vs. non-combustible have to do with whether
or not it's an attic? Nothing. Warehouses can be combustible construction.
We often see Arch. Calling a Mechanical Mezz. With enclosed stairwells,
rated doors, bathrooms and everything needed to be a floor "Attic's" Just
because they Mislabeled it doesn't mean we'll be allowed to treat it as an
attic. Or not install a standpipe. We may have a good case to get a CO to do
it, but the building officials or FM will still say if it's and attic or
Mech. Mezz and "4th floor" Or Floor 30'-0" or more above the lowest level of
FDP access.
Now it's only worth 1/2 a farthing.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE
I know that if it is combustible and the FP System is per NFPA #13 the hair
we are splitting is if it is LH or OH but, wouldn't whether it is considered
a story or not be something decided by the architect and the local building
department? If the plans call it an attic or don't call it anything at all
and it's not calculated as part of the total square feet of the building
then it should be an attic. By calling the attic a an occupied space a three
story building with an accessible attic would be 4 stories and require a
standpipe system.
Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ
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