And we're sitting in ROP at this exact moment in Savannah, having spent an hour this morning discussing these "cross-application" issues. Not that I have a profound answer to the 13/13R conundrum at the moment but I personally subscribe to the "Pick a standard" school of thought. And I do like to argue with George.
________________________________ From: [email protected] on behalf of George Church Sent: Mon 2/14/2011 1:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms I'd argue with Steve at the first opportunity- and yet I completely agree, and we often, sprinkler the attic per PARTS of 13 as enumerated by 13R. No hose is introduced, etc. And you about had me looking how the bathrooms outside dwelling units could be omitted. But didn't we just have a quantum change in the need for a #20 fire pump in 13R? WHEN a fire pump is used, it shall be installed in accordance with #20.... So it didn't specify the use of a fire pump, just to do it per #20 IF you did. I also have a hotel before me now with it backwards- Design to be per NFPA 13 except use NFPA 13R for the dwelling units. I know I've never seen anything in 13 allowing reduced density of .05 in dwelling units, and for the life of me, I wonder what the owner would say if he knew the guy had sprinklers in ALL the closets. George Church Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc. PO Box 407, Middleburg, PA 17842 877-324-ROWE 570-837-6335 fax [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 3:08 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms Ralphy: I'm not sure I agree with your final sentence, "If for some reason the local ammendments require sprinkling of 13R attics or some other area which 13R specifically omits them from you would have to comply with 13 since it's outside the scope of 13R." I'm away from my office and don't have the new building code in front of me, but the previous edition (and presumably the current one) contains provisions for the use of sprinklers in attics in lieu of draft-stopping or compartmentalization requirements. It is absolutely possible to do a 13R system with a sprinklered attic per the building code; you would simply design the attic per 13 (light hazard, sprinkler spacing and positioning criteria for the type of construction) as it's an area outside the dwelling units. But the design would still be per 13R. SL ________________________________ From: [email protected] on behalf of Ralphy Henderson Sent: Mon 2/14/2011 12:03 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms I don't see what there would be to argue about in my prior statement about location of sprinklers in 13R. "Location of Sprinklers" (2007 ed) is in section 6.9 and is not in the section pertaining to areas within the dwelling unit (section 6.8.1) or areas outside the dwelling unit (6.8.2) it pertains to the whole standard; inside or outside the dwelling units unless noted otherwise. 13R never directs you to 13 for that criteria. If for some reason the local ammendments require sprinkling of 13R attics or some other area which 13R specifically omits them from you would have to comply with 13 since it's outside the scope of 13R. I know you probably already know this - I'm just clarifying my self if I didn't make sense earlier. What is there to argue? --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Roland Huggins <[email protected]> wrote: From: Roland Huggins <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms To: [email protected] Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 6:00 PM I would argue your prior statement about WHERE is protected for the entire building just like the concealed combustible spaces. The relative hazard is not based upon the bathroom being within a dwelling unit and the area outside the dwelling unit is NOT a 13 system but still a 13R with discharge criteria based on 13. Insert caveat about this is not to be considered a formal interpretation fo NFPA or any of its technical committees. Roland On Feb 14, 2011, at 8:58 AM, Ralphy Henderson wrote: > Now that it's Monday and brainfreeze is over but madness has begun I'd like > to eat crow and acknowledge I was wrong. The answer lies simply within the > definition of a bathroom per 13R: > > 3.3.1* Bathroom. Within a dwelling unit, any room or compartment containing a > lavatory dedicated to personal hygiene, or a water closet, or bathing > capability such as a shower or tub, or any combination of facilities thereof. > > Keywords: "within a dwelling unit." In my case where we had literal > "bathrooms" in an office space they're still located outside the dwelling > unit - so have to be sprinkled. > > > > --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units > Bathrooms > To: [email protected] > Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 3:36 AM > > The whole building is to be designed per 13R. The lower level has an office > and storage area that is incidental to the use of the primary occupancy which > is R-4. NFPA 13R states that when 13R is to be used it is used throughout the > entire building area.Nowhere in 13R does it refer you to NFPA 13 for the > *location* of sprinklers - all that is covered under 13R. Which is why you > don't provide sprinkler coverage in attics, crawlspaces, etc even when > they're outside the dwelling unit on a 13R system (unless they contain fuel > fired equipment etc). > > In this case, since the lower area is outside the dwelling unit, 13R temporarily re-directs you to NFPA 13's water density requirements, spacing requirements etc.. for layout and calcs but specifically states in the annex material that it's not directing you to the other NFPA 13 requirements such as sprinkling concealed combustible spaces, hose allowances etc.. > > Seeing how these are truly "bathrooms" in a building that is getting a 13R > system - it looks to me like they could be omitted. > > > > --- On Fri, 2/11/11, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units > Bathrooms > To: [email protected] > Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:30 PM > > If that portion of the building is no longer allowed to be designed to > 13R then that portion of the building is not outside the dwelling area > per 13R, it is in an area of totally separate design criteria. If then > the bathroom in question is though still under 13R design criteria > then it is within the dwelling area unlike closets on decks that open > to the outside only. In your scenario the attic is outside the > dwelling area but still a part of 13R criteria and is exempt from > sprinklers, but what about the crawlspace? Outside the dwelling area? > 13R or 13? you have to determine which language you're speaking before > you can go to the proper dictionary. > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Ralphy Henderson > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Very simple actually... a house converted into a rehab center; R-4 occupancy >> with a lower level that consists of an office with file room.The lower level >> still has the old 'bathrooms' (two of 'em) - literal bathrooms; toilet and >> tub. >> >> >> >> >> >> --- On Fri, 2/11/11, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units >> Bathrooms >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 10:17 PM >> >> How can a bathroom be outside the dwelling unit? That's like saying >> living rooms outside the dwelling area. >> >> On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Ralphy Henderson >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Sorry, not so...please provide documentation showing where that's >>> stated. Whenever you use 13R you use the standard throughout the >>> building except where specifically indicated by 13R. The only time >>> 13R refers you back to NFPA 13 for areas outside the dwelling unit >>> is primarily for discharge densities, spacing, etc and NOT sprinkler >>> locations >>> >>> You'll notice in the following appendix material for 6.8.2 that sprinkler LOCATION is not mentioned - deliberately. >>> >>> A.6.8.2 It is only the intent of NFPA 13R to reference the sprinkler >>> discharge (flow and pressure), number of design sprinklers, and position of >>> sprinklers (distance from walls, ceilings, and other sprinklers) >>> requirements of NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler >>> Systems. Other rules from NFPA 13 such as sprinklering of combustible >>> concealed spaces, hose stream demand, and water supply duration are not >>> intended to be referenced by 6.8.2. >>> >>> --- On Fri, 2/11/11, G. Tim Stone <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> From: G. Tim Stone <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units >>> Bathrooms >>> To: "[email protected]" >>> <[email protected]> >>> Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 9:14 PM >>> >>> If you are outside the dwelling unit, it reverts back to NFPA 13. Chapter 8. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> G Tim Stone >>> >>> >>> On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Ralphy Henderson >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Yeah but where does it state that? NFPA #13R doesn't require sprinklers in >>>> bathrooms under 55 sq. ft. Ch 6.9 (2007 ed) when talking about bathrooms, >>>> doesn't say "within dwelling units" as it does with 6.9.3 for the >>>> sprinkling of closets, pantries etc. >>>> >>>> The distinction, as far as I can tell, of"within" and "outside" the >>>> dwelling units only applies to design criteria and not location - >>>> otherwise concealed combustible spaces outside the dwelling unit would >>>> have to sprinkled which is obviously not the case. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>>> >>>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>>> to:[email protected] >>>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email >>> to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ron Greenman >> Instructor >> Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College >> 1101 So. Yakima Ave. >> Tacoma, WA 98405 >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ >> >> 253.680.7346 >> 253.576.9700 (cell) >> >> Member: >> ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC >> >> They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis >> Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email >> to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > --Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
