Now that it's Monday and brainfreeze is over but madness has begun I'd like to eat crow and acknowledge I was wrong. The answer lies simply within the definition of a bathroom per 13R:
3.3.1* Bathroom. Within a dwelling unit, any room or compartment containing a lavatory dedicated to personal hygiene, or a water closet, or bathing capability such as a shower or tub, or any combination of facilities thereof. Keywords: "within a dwelling unit." In my case where we had literal "bathrooms" in an office space they're still located outside the dwelling unit - so have to be sprinkled. --- On Sat, 2/12/11, Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote: From: Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 3:36 AM The whole building is to be designed per 13R. The lower level has an office and storage area that is incidental to the use of the primary occupancy which is R-4. NFPA 13R states that when 13R is to be used it is used throughout the entire building area.Nowhere in 13R does it refer you to NFPA 13 for the *location* of sprinklers - all that is covered under 13R. Which is why you don't provide sprinkler coverage in attics, crawlspaces, etc even when they're outside the dwelling unit on a 13R system (unless they contain fuel fired equipment etc). In this case, since the lower area is outside the dwelling unit, 13R temporarily re-directs you to NFPA 13's water density requirements, spacing requirements etc.. for layout and calcs but specifically states in the annex material that it's not directing you to the other NFPA 13 requirements such as sprinkling concealed combustible spaces, hose allowances etc.. Seeing how these are truly "bathrooms" in a building that is getting a 13R system - it looks to me like they could be omitted. --- On Fri, 2/11/11, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote: From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms To: [email protected] Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 11:30 PM If that portion of the building is no longer allowed to be designed to 13R then that portion of the building is not outside the dwelling area per 13R, it is in an area of totally separate design criteria. If then the bathroom in question is though still under 13R design criteria then it is within the dwelling area unlike closets on decks that open to the outside only. In your scenario the attic is outside the dwelling area but still a part of 13R criteria and is exempt from sprinklers, but what about the crawlspace? Outside the dwelling area? 13R or 13? you have to determine which language you're speaking before you can go to the proper dictionary. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote: > Very simple actually... a house converted into a rehab center; R-4 occupancy > with a lower level that consists of an office with file room.The lower level > still has the old 'bathrooms' (two of 'em) - literal bathrooms; toilet and > tub. > > > > > > --- On Fri, 2/11/11, Ron Greenman <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms > To: [email protected] > Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 10:17 PM > > How can a bathroom be outside the dwelling unit? That's like saying > living rooms outside the dwelling area. > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 2:08 PM, Ralphy Henderson > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Sorry, not so...please provide documentation showing where that's stated. >> Whenever you use 13R you use the standard throughout the building except >> where specifically indicated by 13R. The only time 13R refers you back to >> NFPA 13 for areas outside the dwelling unit is primarily for discharge >> densities, spacing, etc and NOT sprinkler locations >> >> You'll notice in the following appendix material for 6.8.2 that sprinkler >> LOCATION is not mentioned - deliberately. >> >> A.6.8.2 It is only the intent of NFPA 13R to reference the sprinkler >> discharge (flow and pressure), number of design sprinklers, and position of >> sprinklers (distance from walls, ceilings, and other sprinklers) >> requirements of NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems. >> Other rules from NFPA 13 such as sprinklering of combustible concealed >> spaces, hose stream demand, and water supply duration are not intended to be >> referenced by 6.8.2. >> >> --- On Fri, 2/11/11, G. Tim Stone <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: G. Tim Stone <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: Friday Brainfreeze - 13R Outside the dwelling Units Bathrooms >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 9:14 PM >> >> If you are outside the dwelling unit, it reverts back to NFPA 13. Chapter 8. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> G Tim Stone >> >> >> On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:01 PM, Ralphy Henderson <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Yeah but where does it state that? NFPA #13R doesn't require sprinklers in >>> bathrooms under 55 sq. ft. Ch 6.9 (2007 ed) when talking about bathrooms, >>> doesn't say "within dwelling units" as it does with 6.9.3 for the >>> sprinkling of closets, pantries etc. >>> >>> The distinction, as far as I can tell, of"within" and "outside" the >>> dwelling units only applies to design criteria and not location - otherwise >>> concealed combustible spaces outside the dwelling unit would have to >>> sprinkled which is obviously not the case. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology > Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
