Mike, I don't think I ever disagreed with the problem. I've just been waiting for the White Paper (it would actually be prettier on salmon). Tyco has had the calculation formula for a long time. And if you think that this is a big problem for OUR industry, read on:
Safety Officials Warn 4,400 Dams "Susceptible To Failure." The New York Times (2/22, D1, Fountain) reports that "of the nation's 85,000 dams, more than 4,400 are considered susceptible to failure, according to the Association of State Dam Safety Officials. But repairing all those dams would cost billions of dollars, and it is far from clear who would provide all the money in a recessionary era." The Times focused on the stakes for the Lake Isabella dam for local residents and the "340,000 people who live in Bakersfield, 40 miles down the Kern River Canyon on the edge of California's vast agricultural heartland." On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 9:25 PM, Michael Fitz <[email protected]> wrote: > OK, Ron and Bill, you can say I told you so! > > Jamie and Travis, > > Due to my work schedule and ability to procrastinate, I have not written the > white paper I need to publish on this very topic. > > We had a cold snap in the Seattle area a few years ago and we had MANY > freezes of the sidewalls that were placed in the wall in a very common > practice - fed overhead down through the top plates into a 6" wall with the > insulation on the outside of the pipes and the steel barrel poking out into > the walkway, etc. > > Engineering calculations with a finite element program plus a full scale > test with a cold chamber proved that the heat transfer down the steel barrel > of a sidewall sprink would cause freezing of the water at the junction of > the tee in the wall, caulked, sealed and insulated. While it might not > break the tee, especially if it was steel, it still froze, damaged the seal > or was certainly below the magic 40F listed in 13. It was our conclusion > that the construction practice could not meet the requirements of 13 in the > mild Seattle area. > > We then looked at the manufacturer's recommendations and none of them had > any at the time - no required exposed barrel length in the heated area vs. > the exposed temperature and amount of insulation. And what temperature do > you assume for the heated area? 70? 55 for a winter turndown? A real > problem! > > As much as I REALLY hate to say it, think dry. > > Michael M. Fitz, P.E., C.F.E.I., C.F.P.S. > MDE Inc. 700 S. Industrial Way, Seattle, WA 98101 > Home Office P.O. Box G, Shelton, WA 98584 > 206-321-1804 > > > On 2/21/2011 3:03 PM, Jamie.seidl wrote: >> >> We've always concealed them in a soffit or perpendicular wall. As long as >> the insulation is at the exterior wall you'll be fine. Not really sure >> where he is coming from with that. You are still within the heated envelope >> of the building. >> >> Jamie >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Feb 21, 2011, at 5:53 PM, "Travis Mack, SET"<[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> How is everyone installing these heads when req'd? One of my customers >>> just left a meeting with the Tyco Rep and he was told that you were required >>> to have x" of dry barrel exposed (depending on temperatures) in the room, >>> and that it could not be concealed in a soffit or decoshield. We can't see >>> some of these high end apts or condos allowing 4-6" of exposed dry barrel in >>> a unit. What are others in cold climates doing with these situations? >>> >>> -- >>> Please feel free to call if you have any questions or comments. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> >>> Travis Mack, SET >>> MFP Design, LLC >>> 2508 E Lodgepole Drive >>> Gilbert, AZ 85298 >>> Office (480) 505-9271 >>> Fax (866) 430-6107 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Sprinklerforum mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >>> >>> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >>> >>> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >>> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum >> >> For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] >> >> To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] >> (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus >> signature database 5894 (20110221) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 5894 (20110221) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum > > For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] > > To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] > (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: [email protected] To Unsubscribe, send an email to:[email protected] (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
