EXACTLY.... Well said Mark -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 10:47 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Tank installation - NFPA 22 - 03 ed
How many "MEs" have spec'd fire sprinkler work for decades and have thus 'earned' the respect of various owners as being 'experts in their field.' They must be - they've been doing it for years. Just like the schlock contractor, both benefit from the reality that fires are rare events. Even more rare are the fires that actually push our systems to the limits (storage fire in the remote area vs. a single sprinkler in the closet). But you can bet that the day I get lazy in my engineering and allow a buried tank to be installed without proper engineering, exactly 13 months later there will be heavy rains that raise the water table; and a sprinkler discharge that runs all night because the alarms malfunctioned; and the resulting empty water tank rising up through the floor slab just in time for the peak production period of the client. In short, we must always be diligent, like Dewayne, and ask these questions rather than going on assuming everything will just work out. Mark A. Sornsin, P.E. | Karges-Faulconbridge, Inc. | Fire Protection Engineer | Fargo, ND | direct: 701.552.9905 | mobile: 701.371.5759 | http://www.kfiengineers.com -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Martinez, Dewayne Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 12:52 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Tank installation - NFPA 22 - 03 ed Thanks guys, I didn't know that all this was involved. At one point in my career I had asked the "bobber" question and was told that once the tanks were filled with water they wouldn't budge so I left it at that. Usually we would just hire a plumbing contractor who did UG / Tank work and they did it all for us. I never questioned their methods since I considered them the experts at what they were doing. I only had one consulting engineer make us pour a concrete base and anchor the tanks down. This is out of about 50 tank installs. -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 10:53 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Tank installation - NFPA 22 - 03 ed Right. I'm troubled by the statement "It does not appear that the tanks will need to be anchored". One of the very first things I was taught about buried tanks was the quick calculation of the weight of concrete vs. the buoyant force of water, in order to assure that the slab was of sufficient mass to keep the tank from being pushed out of the ground in case of an Act of God class event, such as flooding or water table rising or ... whatever. I would say that a civil and/or soils engineer at least needs to at least evaluate the excavation, consider stability of the edges, factor the fill (I've always used pea gravel and not recompacted native fill), blah, blah, blah. A structural engineer along with the soils engineer should sign off on reinforcement of any slab as well. See - you already have a dinner party. A boring dinner party, but still a party. SML -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 8:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Tank installation - NFPA 22 - 03 ed What Ron said, unless you understand soil mechanics and have the test data from this site guy. Each tank weighs 32000# plus the weight of the tank. There is a lot to go wrong if it is not supported correctly. Todd G Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-535-2080 www.fpdc.com > On Jun 12, 2014, at 11:12 AM, "Martinez, Dewayne" <[email protected]> wrote: > > At my past companies there was never a civil involved besides telling > us the general area to locate the tanks. > Is it really that complicated? Basically they are burring a couple of > concrete septic tanks and pitching the pipe down to the inlet at the > building. I was never really too involved in the whole digging > process. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > rongreenman . > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 9:14 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Tank installation - NFPA 22 - 03 ed > > DeWayne, > > There must be a civil involved. You might want to consult. This not > the type of conversation to start with, "... I was thinking...." > > > On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 5:55 AM, Martinez, Dewayne < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> We have to have 2 - 8000gal concrete suction tanks installed below >> grade and the GC was asking me how far apart to put the tanks and >> what > >> kind of foundation will they need. The tanks will be side by side >> and > >> I was thinking having them about 2ft apart, any suggestions? It >> looks > >> like from CH 11 that I would need a compacted base with 3in of sand >> cushion on top for the tank foundation. It does not appear that the >> tanks will need to be anchored. Everything look good so far? >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Dewayne >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Sprinklerforum mailing list >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprink >> l >> er.org >> > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er > .org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler .org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler .org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. 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