So say you have a 24” deep beam running parallel with the ESFR lines. So the first lines is 2’ from the beam, the second line is 8’ apart, the third line is apart 10’ and the fourth line is apart 10’ and so on with the ESFR space 10’ on center on the lines. The coverage per ESFR on the line 2’ away from the beam is 60 sq. ft. (6’ x10’), the coverage per ESFR on the next line is 90 sq. ft. (9’ x 10’) and on the third line it is 100 sq. ft. (10’ x 10’). The (12) ESFR are protecting a floor area of 1000 sq. ft. (40’ x 25’) exceeds the minimum required of 768 sq. ft. So due to the first row of ESFR protecting 60 sq. ft. per sprinkler, the system is not in compliance?
Thanks, Gregg Fontes Cen-Cal Fire Systems, Inc. 209-334-9119 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Roland Huggins Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 1:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: ESFR Heads in Concrete Tee's Reality can be cruel. Without an approved variance, the very bad news is you have a noncomplying system and all the liability that goes with that. After all the crying and gnashing of teeth, sometimes mother has to pick a different baby. Roland Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Dallas, TX http://www.firesprinkler.org<http://www.firesprinkler.org/> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives On Feb 16, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Mark.Phelps <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I the applications we work in (real buildings) it is not possible to do so. If I have a sprinkler 10 feet from an I Beam, I can only install the next sprinkler at the 8' minimum spacing from it. And if I space the first sprinkler at that same 8' from there, I am over spaced from the obstructing beam by 12". So...... what's a mother to do? Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 Sent from my iPhone On Feb 16, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Roland Huggins <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: The one doesn’t negate the other. You have to comply with BOTH. Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Dallas, TX http://secure-web.cisco.com/11AaOLmB4GbEARu4YaU_u16EyUnzrX2BM5FR_tPL5oVcrPe8PDEMGFOFNTZw_W613QOFX-p1sOCSOHfzbYNg3lq2AMVYiobBQvuJWjxM0NYjqixKpqTKgio_t--XFyz30IGG9zBFtDRRS3mfB3wjC6Tpz07kT6wHABc6RZ35mypIW581pVqLhPpfXsddxen3NwS3TfOerPq1b_3AasUH9ODWU7WDUdHaicl5lQ0JD29Z9Vq_WHBRsimXtM3gnSFAH-lU-T0kssWfPvJKpNxzrNg/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1hcpfq6Aet0_1h6nFu-avzR_O96qADNdz7alQIL6l8ARN5J1fl2qjc7_NrgAVKZTjFb_wSLnVCc-ii6BeuzcRj_5KiLISDVqFhq4U8P-fLL-5ZmSWaBpC97OW_8dtu0fucdeE1zC6HsmYX9T7p-VGpAqiAbDak32SQYIeclZQk_dLtQEXULnC7rXnByKRKhQ6EDKuoiJGtIcVjDttfCP9JvV8VOW3x7JJ9r8qxlt-QopgghPNDL9xalZgnxzPkD40_Ccz5ySp78CxMthuFOjNgQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org%2F> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives On Feb 16, 2018, at 10:43 AM, Mark.Phelps <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I'm away from the standards but doesn't NFPA 13 have a paragraph which addresses sprinkler spacing on both sides of an obstruction, and only limits the spacing to 1/2 the Maximum spacing from the obstruction? We routinely space ESFR/Storage sprinklers at 2'-0" from an I Beam on both sides in this application. Mark at Aero 602 820-7894 Sent from my iPad On Feb 16, 2018, at 8:17 AM, Roland Huggins <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: You still need to get approval of the AHJ (as an equivalency) since NFPA 13 does not allow it. Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering American Fire Sprinkler Assn. Dallas, TX http://secure-web.cisco.com/1itLE6KI-0YvJ1O45X-H49Sz3FDbGxbyzHLZJkAbQXBXC6TUcVFrJZya7TLnA8Ut2OGf3AF_WbKtBmNFbDz5s0noy3S3-pWB0AzUSHu5TX6l1iqlQ05nFibAMML6rSjHcP5pmA8hp_QEbruyQaw8a1pTisuJwPbnzqdKMm7-YmBzD5DJlCkcneBQU0PxOeYljUgXfjbADGEM2pBaTCy610TUk2w7i3H2Pon6RScLsPAmSurc0ob7fCWUadpxLLUhMON7FFAP3xAa9PtY3ru4JdA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1gaQcMS-LbBp6Jj0YkGnzaHbPgLw41B9RPOI0VnW-c4TnRlVE5BDuXcfPtCJSlaixPN6oazrltd-gVfYKy5SIxjOXx3fGK-oJSgIZLjt2v_4tLTSl_zo-j4QUMb5xMJ1YCuEk-EDcY9PmTaVDXFfgyVdcNKIiV2tIPQHWo2OwgTWlgKRwc1qUlntQZ8jLjbkzoziLbfls6V43gltorbCDzFWQpfYoZaVpt2S6t3ARnRVM2N2Z4_x6xhXoSTzqRUEcnPQDA1t7pLPq2JKPI2a4Dw/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org%2F> Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives On Feb 16, 2018, at 6:45 AM, Brian Harris <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Mark- I got a phone call yesterday from a member of one of the committees who essentially said the same thing. I’ve re-spotted heads using ESFR in each pocket over the storage area and the calc’s are much better, still need to find some more cushion somewhere. Thanks again for the response. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. bvssytemsinc.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1FryT8Ikt3abUxObRrFIcU1_D5fdxxXawMJ3tRKAfDq1J4Bd5c3vb-ShiqIJ8cGUDkiq3_V7q046N6dQxTczruYMhD-lEpL1RhsWsaUFmYiqd3gBAEDa83CTrk--G9JndlyaOCQe3dmpbjAdUj0jN3tPRT5buhY8S44akmM4ZMmIyL6HGTRFVbMYdEP86VQa3NQsutibokLpiUk8O_Vhsc9q_gQqXMPItQerUZAn-QBFHtIKTkSIsrNDN4gPZcJfxuMwyvT327bVKTF0C6_TjZg/http%3A%2F%2Fbvssystemsinc.com%2F> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Sornsin [FAR] Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 9:41 AM To: '[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>' Subject: RE: ESFR Heads in Concrete Tee's This may not be an FM job – and FM doesn’t use the term ESFR anymore, but… I am familiar with an FM job where storage (aka ESFR) sprinklers were used in every tee space of concrete tee construction – they were 30” deep tees. The rule against not spacing sprinklers closer than 8’ didn’t apply because the tees prevented cold soldering. The trick however is that FM has a minimum design area for their storage sprinkler calculations (Despite the base design being 12 sprinklers at a given pressure). That area is 12 x the minimum sprinkler coverage area of 64 sq.ft., which is 768 sq.ft. I.e. if your design area does not meet 768 sq.ft. FM requires you add sprinklers until you reach that threshold. Again, the main point here is that the minimum spacing is meant for adjacent sprinklers, but not those obstructed from each other by construction features – at least in FM’s opinion. <image002.jpg><http://secure-web.cisco.com/1naImZp36tbKvd-rE8Lq8Snmcp7AWVf_fow06qFuTm-3st78J7fiMwAVI_bZSfKbV6wmJdiNzVSMbwNLV028ySp6raYqy_Q2K2JVTnd0ZxsgYtz5q506xFQ_bhk1jibQFb6aQvvB88bxuhPNCNC0kFCKn7xOUgfe6J2znCw1bl_h4CmKWZLcDWLm6JX21oZmK9j6WUPti0yxNZ6lNsTXlHz2COB2_gK4L3Lf2eC7AGriuTv7dZAXZivw6En1vvQZ0teCMEC--V7PoruPz9p5DXA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.summitcous.com%2F> Mark Sornsin Sr. Fire Protection Engineer Direct: 701-499-1391 Cell: 701-526-8585 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Brian Harris Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2018 3:29 PM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: ESFR Heads in Concrete Tee's Looking for some confirmation that ESFR heads cannot be used with concrete tee construction when the tee is 26” deep. Cut sheet says in this case you’d have to put them in each bay but also says heads can’t be closer than 8’, tee’s are 6’ on center. Brian Harris, CET BVS Systems Inc. Design Manager bvssystemsinc.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1FryT8Ikt3abUxObRrFIcU1_D5fdxxXawMJ3tRKAfDq1J4Bd5c3vb-ShiqIJ8cGUDkiq3_V7q046N6dQxTczruYMhD-lEpL1RhsWsaUFmYiqd3gBAEDa83CTrk--G9JndlyaOCQe3dmpbjAdUj0jN3tPRT5buhY8S44akmM4ZMmIyL6HGTRFVbMYdEP86VQa3NQsutibokLpiUk8O_Vhsc9q_gQqXMPItQerUZAn-QBFHtIKTkSIsrNDN4gPZcJfxuMwyvT327bVKTF0C6_TjZg/http%3A%2F%2Fbvssystemsinc.com%2F> Phone: 704.896.9989 Fax: 704.896.1935 ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com<http://www.symanteccloud.com/> ______________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1v29pH_Pv12MCVIYZWcII03d9rh18vJkqKynWqIjkkq7DbLzqzgeB60zUGoKUEFjFA1HZI1x-6xE3gK84UNL-nlidVpv9AYfFrwrV05NtincJoVvOg2kHirlwzZcXJrOP0YxPFeutnaGM5DHKh34-bWrtd3x__brgLoGabf4fiK-RgCPasZdwP5S2oS_tQgvM9RjMfl-UtLbnrhKTi49SCmTen1JtPFC1XtBTsG9II7NYHJAoITY4-lV_I_Ah3Q5I1X5AlG43DT7jj5MD2OVFow/http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1v29pH_Pv12MCVIYZWcII03d9rh18vJkqKynWqIjkkq7DbLzqzgeB60zUGoKUEFjFA1HZI1x-6xE3gK84UNL-nlidVpv9AYfFrwrV05NtincJoVvOg2kHirlwzZcXJrOP0YxPFeutnaGM5DHKh34-bWrtd3x__brgLoGabf4fiK-RgCPasZdwP5S2oS_tQgvM9RjMfl-UtLbnrhKTi49SCmTen1JtPFC1XtBTsG9II7NYHJAoITY4-lV_I_Ah3Q5I1X5AlG43DT7jj5MD2OVFow/http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1grPcJ4mL0wg7Ugy1MtPVege2glp9Q9PEjJIe5-4b2AeP5FtQ8tzBIj94mFeMVW6DL-8L_SaP5seLJu_Bwxfyyw1N913Qxiig7b5Eo9EBKmMMmIAJqb7BYn8Y0-HELryh4T6eosDwv6QL0UtsbJ1DG9dXWM7hqooKy8XuyCM7kAHbeA6BsKsaux5z95wueAXtX6es2U5OB0MAhnkEEJWVmmkdQeQee-rFQMMqKBt8e-i7s6BZNKA50JEQ1QWIsBqYYRB7PSxhA4VBB0Llru7CRw/http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://secure-web.cisco.com/1grPcJ4mL0wg7Ugy1MtPVege2glp9Q9PEjJIe5-4b2AeP5FtQ8tzBIj94mFeMVW6DL-8L_SaP5seLJu_Bwxfyyw1N913Qxiig7b5Eo9EBKmMMmIAJqb7BYn8Y0-HELryh4T6eosDwv6QL0UtsbJ1DG9dXWM7hqooKy8XuyCM7kAHbeA6BsKsaux5z95wueAXtX6es2U5OB0MAhnkEEJWVmmkdQeQee-rFQMMqKBt8e-i7s6BZNKA50JEQ1QWIsBqYYRB7PSxhA4VBB0Llru7CRw/http%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flistinfo.cgi%2Fsprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.firesprinkler.org/private.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org/attachments/20180216/c106b97e/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
