I never saw a wall that didn't go all the way down to the floor.
Brad.
Quoting "Mark.Phelps" <[email protected]>:
So this minimum space rule applies to sprinklers under soffits and
on either side of a lintel? I guess I have been of the understanding
that this type of obstruction was effectively treated like a wall.
Is that just not correct?
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 16, 2018, at 2:23 PM, Roland Huggins
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Reality can be cruel. Without an approved variance, the very bad
news is you have a noncomplying system and all the liability that
goes with that. After all the crying and gnashing of teeth,
sometimes mother has to pick a different baby.
Roland
Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1wXO1nDy8iYAz2-wkUjZWf5n8JBJh5F1GYGMpa5sAkyrXcYp53UgWPDWk7yMm2GAuKGJs-SDyayG2YArmuwjrZSkbCU9sV2phXwIo5VxEdtibGkfHZUTyhybWoBEh0IsLyjXv912KxMOvIr6Bp4zH5R-GGaDYGo3LHJ9JrUeklb9Z5aYBcghFIysl62kH1aZTGXb8i7TgRoKKIgtxu4xmYvCUnboweqOpNXXl1Xcb9qO-9zgvOKDiRw6GUPr8MUhHd2RnanjOoBFe6hAWvVgxmg/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1Rt5VGjvBwdQClxCl63sT3hzlyZTf89OCCrbNtgGCsO3On4Z4UYiPtZeyQZc3G8srveXMRaKYJxK379uyWN1rUNkwAFx_WYGZTWVDbKxKUjAoTDFl7M3G76LK-Mqf2PIiizG8QYGZt0haMrQ7hvgIJMe3kT5Y69SPu313KUYV1XKmyOmjQ8_u00Ujh5Vxeoa5ymesB1FeOOzKhrixOBGdCZqO5Wqi5o9FngecROu4osDq2W0vvxCXC1ZkYlpxPXuMK9VGDaPRZKUmSVCwDPyfSw/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org%2F>
Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
On Feb 16, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Mark.Phelps
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I the applications we work in (real buildings) it is not possible to
do so. If I have a sprinkler 10 feet from an I Beam, I can only
install the next sprinkler at the 8' minimum spacing from it. And if
I space the first sprinkler at that same 8' from there, I am over
spaced from the obstructing beam by 12". So...... what's a mother to
do?
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 16, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Roland Huggins
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
The one doesn’t negate the other. You have to comply with BOTH.
Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://secure-web.cisco.com/11AaOLmB4GbEARu4YaU_u16EyUnzrX2BM5FR_tPL5oVcrPe8PDEMGFOFNTZw_W613QOFX-p1sOCSOHfzbYNg3lq2AMVYiobBQvuJWjxM0NYjqixKpqTKgio_t--XFyz30IGG9zBFtDRRS3mfB3wjC6Tpz07kT6wHABc6RZ35mypIW581pVqLhPpfXsddxen3NwS3TfOerPq1b_3AasUH9ODWU7WDUdHaicl5lQ0JD29Z9Vq_WHBRsimXtM3gnSFAH-lU-T0kssWfPvJKpNxzrNg/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1hcpfq6Aet0_1h6nFu-avzR_O96qADNdz7alQIL6l8ARN5J1fl2qjc7_NrgAVKZTjFb_wSLnVCc-ii6BeuzcRj_5KiLISDVqFhq4U8P-fLL-5ZmSWaBpC97OW_8dtu0fucdeE1zC6HsmYX9T7p-VGpAqiAbDak32SQYIeclZQk_dLtQEXULnC7rXnByKRKhQ6EDKuoiJGtIcVjDttfCP9JvV8VOW3x7JJ9r8qxlt-QopgghPNDL9xalZgnxzPkD40_Ccz5ySp78CxMthuFOjNgQ/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org%2F>
Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
On Feb 16, 2018, at 10:43 AM, Mark.Phelps
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I'm away from the standards but doesn't NFPA 13 have a paragraph
which addresses sprinkler spacing on both sides of an obstruction,
and only limits the spacing to 1/2 the Maximum spacing from the
obstruction? We routinely space ESFR/Storage sprinklers at 2'-0"
from an I Beam on both sides in this application.
Mark at Aero
602 820-7894
Sent from my iPad
On Feb 16, 2018, at 8:17 AM, Roland Huggins
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
You still need to get approval of the AHJ (as an equivalency) since
NFPA 13 does not allow it.
Roland Huggins, PE - Senior VP Engineering
American Fire Sprinkler Assn.
Dallas, TX
http://secure-web.cisco.com/1itLE6KI-0YvJ1O45X-H49Sz3FDbGxbyzHLZJkAbQXBXC6TUcVFrJZya7TLnA8Ut2OGf3AF_WbKtBmNFbDz5s0noy3S3-pWB0AzUSHu5TX6l1iqlQ05nFibAMML6rSjHcP5pmA8hp_QEbruyQaw8a1pTisuJwPbnzqdKMm7-YmBzD5DJlCkcneBQU0PxOeYljUgXfjbADGEM2pBaTCy610TUk2w7i3H2Pon6RScLsPAmSurc0ob7fCWUadpxLLUhMON7FFAP3xAa9PtY3ru4JdA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1gaQcMS-LbBp6Jj0YkGnzaHbPgLw41B9RPOI0VnW-c4TnRlVE5BDuXcfPtCJSlaixPN6oazrltd-gVfYKy5SIxjOXx3fGK-oJSgIZLjt2v_4tLTSl_zo-j4QUMb5xMJ1YCuEk-EDcY9PmTaVDXFfgyVdcNKIiV2tIPQHWo2OwgTWlgKRwc1qUlntQZ8jLjbkzoziLbfls6V43gltorbCDzFWQpfYoZaVpt2S6t3ARnRVM2N2Z4_x6xhXoSTzqRUEcnPQDA1t7pLPq2JKPI2a4Dw/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firesprinkler.org%2F>
Fire Sprinklers Saves Lives
On Feb 16, 2018, at 6:45 AM, Brian Harris
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Mark-
I got a phone call yesterday from a member of one of the committees
who essentially said the same thing. I’ve re-spotted heads using
ESFR in each pocket over the storage area and the calc’s are much
better, still need to find some more cushion somewhere. Thanks again
for the response.
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
bvssytemsinc.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1FryT8Ikt3abUxObRrFIcU1_D5fdxxXawMJ3tRKAfDq1J4Bd5c3vb-ShiqIJ8cGUDkiq3_V7q046N6dQxTczruYMhD-lEpL1RhsWsaUFmYiqd3gBAEDa83CTrk--G9JndlyaOCQe3dmpbjAdUj0jN3tPRT5buhY8S44akmM4ZMmIyL6HGTRFVbMYdEP86VQa3NQsutibokLpiUk8O_Vhsc9q_gQqXMPItQerUZAn-QBFHtIKTkSIsrNDN4gPZcJfxuMwyvT327bVKTF0C6_TjZg/http%3A%2F%2Fbvssystemsinc.com%2F>
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Mark Sornsin [FAR]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 9:41 AM
To:
'[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>'
Subject: RE: ESFR Heads in Concrete Tee's
This may not be an FM job – and FM doesn’t use the term ESFR anymore, but…
I am familiar with an FM job where storage (aka ESFR) sprinklers
were used in every tee space of concrete tee construction – they
were 30” deep tees. The rule against not spacing sprinklers closer
than 8’ didn’t apply because the tees prevented cold soldering. The
trick however is that FM has a minimum design area for their storage
sprinkler calculations (Despite the base design being 12 sprinklers
at a given pressure). That area is 12 x the minimum sprinkler
coverage area of 64 sq.ft., which is 768 sq.ft.
I.e. if your design area does not meet 768 sq.ft. FM requires you
add sprinklers until you reach that threshold.
Again, the main point here is that the minimum spacing is meant for
adjacent sprinklers, but not those obstructed from each other by
construction features – at least in FM’s opinion.
<image002.jpg><http://secure-web.cisco.com/1naImZp36tbKvd-rE8Lq8Snmcp7AWVf_fow06qFuTm-3st78J7fiMwAVI_bZSfKbV6wmJdiNzVSMbwNLV028ySp6raYqy_Q2K2JVTnd0ZxsgYtz5q506xFQ_bhk1jibQFb6aQvvB88bxuhPNCNC0kFCKn7xOUgfe6J2znCw1bl_h4CmKWZLcDWLm6JX21oZmK9j6WUPti0yxNZ6lNsTXlHz2COB2_gK4L3Lf2eC7AGriuTv7dZAXZivw6En1vvQZ0teCMEC--V7PoruPz9p5DXA/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.summitcous.com%2F>
Mark Sornsin
Sr. Fire Protection Engineer
Direct: 701-499-1391
Cell: 701-526-8585
From: Sprinklerforum
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Brian Harris
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2018 3:29 PM
To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: ESFR Heads in Concrete Tee's
Looking for some confirmation that ESFR heads cannot be used with
concrete tee construction when the tee is 26” deep. Cut sheet says
in this case you’d have to put them in each bay but also says heads
can’t be closer than 8’, tee’s are 6’ on center.
Brian Harris, CET
BVS Systems Inc.
Design Manager
bvssystemsinc.com<http://secure-web.cisco.com/1FryT8Ikt3abUxObRrFIcU1_D5fdxxXawMJ3tRKAfDq1J4Bd5c3vb-ShiqIJ8cGUDkiq3_V7q046N6dQxTczruYMhD-lEpL1RhsWsaUFmYiqd3gBAEDa83CTrk--G9JndlyaOCQe3dmpbjAdUj0jN3tPRT5buhY8S44akmM4ZMmIyL6HGTRFVbMYdEP86VQa3NQsutibokLpiUk8O_Vhsc9q_gQqXMPItQerUZAn-QBFHtIKTkSIsrNDN4gPZcJfxuMwyvT327bVKTF0C6_TjZg/http%3A%2F%2Fbvssystemsinc.com%2F>
Phone: 704.896.9989
Fax: 704.896.1935
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