Ok, I understand the need to maintain the 8ft minimum spacing. What has everyone been doing when they get a tenant finish in a ESFR building where they put the demising walls in such a way that there is no way to maintain the 8ft minimum between sprinklers when you have to add some for the walls? It’s great to say to insist that the walls are placed so this doesn’t happen but ½ of the time the wall is already built or can’t be placed conveniently because of outside windows.
Dewayne Martinez Fire Protection Design Manager *TOTAL* *Mechanical* *Building* *Integrity* W234 N2830 Paul Rd. Pewaukee, WI 53072 [email protected] Ph: 262-522-7110 Cell: 414-406-5208 http://www.total-mechanical.com/ [image: Consecutive Honors 2012-2017] *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Kyle.Montgomery *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 1:12 PM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: ESFR closer than 8' JD, Would it be possible to avoid this situation altogether by pushing the lines the other direction? If you go 3 feet off of the beam (8 feet from the branch line on the other side of the beam) then 8 feet from that line, you would be 11 feet from the beam with your second line, which should put you at 6” from the wall, right? I wouldn’t normally want to be that close to a wall, but that might be an easier argument to defend. I still think that you would be OK as previously discussed, but I definitely think it could be a difficult argument. And I would only want to apply this in a condition like yours, where we’re talking about one branch line being potentially “under-spaced”… you certainly would want to reconsider if you had some type of construction where every other branch line had this condition or something. These other guys make some good points, and the commentary in the handbook doesn’t exactly help my argument. But I would contend that we shouldn’t have to eliminate the option of ESFR protection in a building due to one bay or area that doesn’t comply with the letter of the law (my opinion only) and that this is a case where the code does it’s best to provide guidance, but there is some gray area to work in. Every building can’t be a perfect square. -Kyle M *From:* Sprinklerforum [ mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *JD Gamble *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 9:58 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: ESFR closer than 8' Points well taken. Thanks Kyle (insert letters here at will) *Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan* *JD Gamble* [email protected] (307) 763-3361 *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Kyle.Montgomery *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 10:47 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: ESFR closer than 8' JD, Disclaimer: When considering my opinion, please keep in mind the lack of letters after my name. My opinion is simply my interpretation of the code, and not necessarily a definitive answer on whether the system will work as intended. That being stated, my argument is that the spacing of sprinklers is as measured to the nearest head, wall, or obstruction, as appropriate. So, I would say “no” there is no need for an additional baffle if the beam is an obstruction (and if it is not an obstruction, then I don’t think we even have this issue, right?). Now, in an attempt to convince Mr. Mack and others, I will offer this circumstantial evidence: 8.12.5.1.2 – This section states that the distance from the centerline on the obstructions to the sprinklers does not exceed one-half the allowable distance between the sprinklers, but does not say anything about a minimum distance. (admittedly, not a strong argument) 8.12.3.3 Minimum distance from walls is 4 inches… If you have sprinklers this close to a wall, doesn’t that potentially cause a similar issue, i.e. more sprinklers discharging in a given area? (also kind of a poor argument) But the real argument that I can make is when you look at how we deal with obstructions in 8.12.5.2 and 8.12.5.3. What do we do in these cases? We add more sprinklers under the obstruction. Wouldn’t this create the same potential issue of too many sprinklers opening? How is this different? -Kyle M *From:* Sprinklerforum [ mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *MFP Design, LLC *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 9:25 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] RE: ESFR closer than 8' *My understanding is the same as Don stated. It is not skipping or cold soldering. It is too many sprinklers opening. The baffle or curtain will do little, if anything, to alleviate that.* [image: MFP_logo_F] Travis Mack, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 480-505-9271 fax: 866-430-6107 email:[email protected] http://www.mfpdesign.com <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.mfpdesign.com-252F-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DHJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu-252FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=zbBcu5W8YjOki4ieRBLyMq2Xea58AeYroJ4G6PAlxio&s=CfJhENuZL6d4jXqxeghai4zwZiU2HUMYFF85gAH3Ry8&e=> https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.facebook.com-252Fpages-252FMFP-2DDesign-2DLLC-252F92218417692-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DH-252BwdcgK8DLGBcNoqJEvUrzsXngySwkX56Vgf9gM9EGk-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=zbBcu5W8YjOki4ieRBLyMq2Xea58AeYroJ4G6PAlxio&s=CS92VRLwZc5OvwIC1INqTZa-pJJvqNP63R4oTNE2Myg&e=> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.hightail.com-252Fu-252FMFPDesign-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DeGdMZGu2wXhUupGwgGTrqF3b54OP5-252BAZvlHhABSexWY-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=zbBcu5W8YjOki4ieRBLyMq2Xea58AeYroJ4G6PAlxio&s=2JGdISeM5qrlmU9Jc4yAPTPr98dIn0CqIQErPFO8DE8&e=> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fwww.linkedin.com-252Fin-252Ftravismack-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77-257C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511-257C0-257C0-257C636379016677342180-26sdata-3DtT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN-252BZodi-252FhbeCbHNRijI-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMFaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=zbBcu5W8YjOki4ieRBLyMq2Xea58AeYroJ4G6PAlxio&s=-4LB5lB3IQcw6kw6vBwmWjuSG1c39Tn1otNBxuxHw3E&e=> *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.”* *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *JD Gamble *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 9:23 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* RE: ESFR closer than 8' Actually meant that for Kyle , … but feel free to inject Don 😊 *Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan* *JD Gamble* [email protected] (307) 763-3361 *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *JD Gamble *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 10:22 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* RE: ESFR closer than 8' Don, Understanding the concern about water droplets being elevated through and with the fire plume, does the beam still need some form of baffle or curtain to prevent cooling leading to skipping? In your opinion…. *Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan* *JD Gamble* [email protected] (307) 763-3361 *From:* Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Kyle.Montgomery *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 10:05 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* RE: ESFR closer than 8' Jerry, I understand what you’re saying, and the theory behind it, but I don’t think that is the correct interpretation of the code. Per 2016 NFPA 13: 8.12.2.3 Minimum Protection Area of Coverage. The minimum allowable protection are of coverage (As) shall not be less than 64 ft2. The key is the definition of “protection are of coverage (As)”. If you go back a page or two, you find this: 8.12.2.1 Determination of Protection Area of Coverage. The protection area of coverage per sprinkler (As) shall be determined in accordance with 8.5.2.1. Go back to that section, and you find… well I’m not going to type it all out, but the important part is that you use this formula: As = S x L And L is determined by “the larger of either twice the distance to the wall or obstruction or the distance to the next sprinkler. Assuming that the beam is considered an obstruction (head closer than 5 feet in this instance, see 8.12.5.1.1) then you are using the larger of either double the distance to the beam, or the distance to the next line. In this case, I’m guessing coverage area will end up being calculated at 80 square feet (8’ x 10’), although I am guessing at the actual layout. Long story short: It is OK to be spaced less than 8 feet when there is an obstruction in the middle, in my interpretation. -Kyle M *From:* Sprinklerforum [ mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Jerry Costello *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 8:12 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] RE: ESFR closer than 8' My understanding is that a beam or baffle does not work with ESFR sprinklers. This because the minimum square footage maintained by spacing requirements are figured into the 12 sprinkler heads used in the testing. Jerry Costello Lead design set *Advance Fire Protection Since 1969* 1451 W Lambert RD La Habra, Ca. 90631 714-526-2231- fax 562-691-5482 *From:* Sprinklerforum [ mailto:[email protected] <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *JD Gamble *Sent:* Wednesday, May 30, 2018 8:07 AM *To:* [email protected] *Subject:* ESFR closer than 8' I need some clarity on this one …. Spacing ESFR 25.2K PNTs on 10 x 10 spacing in 30’ bays @ 16” below ceiling. Line are equally spaced 5’ from center of 36” deep beams. I have an area where a full height wall is 11’-6” from a beam requiring an additional row of ESFR. When spacing the additional sprinklers at 8’ between branch lines it places the additional sprinklers less than 8’ from the adjacent line along the other side of the solid steel beam. Is the beam sufficient (only 20” below the sprinkler) to prevent skipping? Can I be less than minimum spacing (64sq.ft.) with the beam separating sprinklers? Scratching my head here….. *Life Safety Solutions of Sheridan* *JD Gamble* [email protected] (307) 763-3361
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