In situations where we're directed to undertake a design element that I don't agree with, or informed that something is required or not allowed, I always ask for the fire or building official to cite the section number they are relying on. The two floors are separate fire areas and the configuration of a high-rise sprinkler system already addresses that. And protection of the opening in the fire separation - in this case the floor assembly - is also spelled out in the code. If they're asking for more than opening protection, they should be able to cite the code section that prescribes whatever they're looking for. If they say you have to have a separate sprinkler system on one or the other floor because of a fire separation, ask them where they're getting that as well.
Steve From: Anthony Carrizosa <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 10:28 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Do separate fire areas require sprinkler system to be separated Your opinion is much appreciated and falls in line with what I am thinking as well. Just hoping to find some verbiage that could satisfy them. I may bring out the NFPA requirement on system size limitation in 8.2 System Protection Area Limitations. and then 8.2.3 that each floor can have multiple hazards protected by the same system as long as the limitations in square footage of the highest hazard are not exceeded and or the total system area does not exceed the maximum for the lighter hazard. Thanks again for your input. Anthony Carrizosa Project Manager | Fire Protection 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222 [cid:[email protected]] https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1> From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 10:14 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Do separate fire areas require sprinkler system to be separated To my knowledge, it does not. Look at a typical stair shaft - it's 2-hour and we sprinkler stair landings and arrange floor control assemblies and pass in and out of that shaft on each floor in mid- and high-rise buildings all the time. I think you sprinkler the spaces at the lower level from the lower level system and penetrate into any vestibule that you may have to build at the bottom of your escalators. The market above is controlled by the sprinkler system on that floor above. I have to add the disclaimer that as a former member of the NFPA technical committee on fire sprinklers, all of the information we've exchanged is my opinion only. And as a consultant who's client roster is mostly architects, this is something that the architect of record should assess and specify. The sprinkler design is subordinate to the building code requirements, AS INTERPRETED by the building official. So if somebody up the food chain is saying it has to be a separate fire area, or just separated by something more than opening projection, then the architect is responsible for sorting that, and the sprinkler design can be done pursuant to finalizing the configuration. HOWEVER... openings are allowed in floor assemblies with adequate protection, so it should also be investigated whether or not a water curtain and requisite smoke barriers will be acceptable to the building official. Steve Leyton Remember, MY OPINION ONLY. From: Anthony Carrizosa <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 10:03 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Do separate fire areas require sprinkler system to be separated Yes, Fire Sprinkler protection question. They are asking if the fire sprinkler system also needs to be separate per Fire Area. I know it typically does not have to be separate and our system can span across two different fire areas, we just have to protect our penetrations. Anthony Carrizosa Project Manager | Fire Protection 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222 [cid:[email protected]] https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1> From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 9:46 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Do separate fire areas require sprinkler system to be separated Sounds like they're asking for a vestibule or some sort of enclosure, but I'm not going to speculate. Are you asking this in the context of fire sprinkler protection or general building code requirements? Steve L. From: Anthony Carrizosa <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 8:57 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Do separate fire areas require sprinkler system to be separated [cid:[email protected]] Per the Architect: Their scope was to create a separation between QFC and the parking garage as they are both part of the same base building. Separating the two areas into separate fire areas was reviewed and ultimately approved by City of Kirkland as the means to achieve this scope. They have interpreted that if we separate the spaces into different fire areas, the fire alarm will need to be separated and are asking if the fire sprinkler system also needs to be separate. Any ideas? I don't think the fire sprinkler system needs to be separated but they are asking me to confirm. Thanks Anthony Carrizosa Project Manager | Fire Protection 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222 [cid:[email protected]] https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1> From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 8:42 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Do separate fire areas require sprinkler system to be separated The building code requires that high-rise sprinkler systems be controlled and the waterflow/tamper alarms be annunciated per floor, but not fire area on a given floor. You are describing a situation that requires opening protection because of the floor-to-floor penetration, which in and of itself doesn't create a separate "fire area" but does communicate between different floors. If you end up placing a water curtain around the opening at the lower level, it should be supplied by the floor control assembly for that floor. The market above is supplied by its floor control assembly. Hope that I'm understanding your question, Steve L. From: Anthony Carrizosa <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2022 8:33 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Do separate fire areas require sprinkler system to be separated We are working on a high rise building were the below grade parking has a grocery store above on the grade floor, an escalator/stairs provides access between the garage and the store and has a non-rated enclosure around it. The Architect is now saying that it needs to be rated and is asking if since there will now be two separate fire areas does the fire sprinkler system need to be separated along with the fire alarm system? I cant find anything in the IBC that clearly states one system is acceptable or that two separate systems are required. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Anthony Carrizosa Project Manager | Fire Protection 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222 [cid:[email protected]] https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1> Anthony Carrizosa | Fire Protection Estimator / Project Manager 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222 [https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2fwp-content%2fuploads%2f2021%2f04%2farcher_logo.jpg&c=E,1,iOru29gH30krLbLDfm-Oz2HCyNeYqSXtrqUrkw_82eYd74Tatbn9Mk2KIexAq2Tfr9N77oRmZ4tB8GeX8wG8XFsOckz8m_WRDR27y2jCbXO1Nm-PHdjf&typo=1] https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,uOFpKnXoKAqtsbPiPnEzK69II4nW0DEqGmpOCB6ra0lazLcQJDB699ihE90BpKZsk-5CqI67z4Qt41O5eVR5sjrtKYEHmJFPpsUyv8GUYda3YO3g&typo=1>
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