hmmmm…..try adjacent hazard….scenario #3 In my mind, and obstruction gets in the way of the head and what I’m protecting with said head.
What happens under a mezz may be storage but it likely isn’t the storage beyond the mezz. Other scenarios….. The ceiling of the shop managers office, located in the middle of the shop floor (they like to bird dog their staff something fierce), also obstructs the ESFRs…but we’re not installing ESFRs in there. A less silly example – protection schemes that include horizontal barriers. Above and below get looked at separately. From: Rick Matsuda <[email protected]> Sent: August 29, 2023 12:52 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Below Mezzanine As an old retired AHJ, I would have allowed you to install control mode area/density sprinklers beneath the mezzanine designed for EH1 if they use combustible hydraulic fluids in their equipment. Or even a higher density if there are excessive empty plastic bottles stored in the area. Also get a letter from the owner acknowledging the restricted use below the mezzanine. However, if your contract requires you to follow the EOR, then you have to do what you have to do. In either case, use water shields to protect from cold soldering from above. Just my opinion. Rick Matsuda On Aug 29, 2023, at 11:45 AM, Prahl, Craig <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Steve, We don’t have all the data or reasoning for the design criteria the EOR used. You are right in that the conditions below the mezz might be lesser than the area beyond the mezz perimeter. But lacking adequate info, and for the purpose of this discussion we assume there is no difference. There is also the NFPA 13 requirement of extending the more demanding system 15 ft beyond its perimeter into the area of the lesser hazard so, even if the area below was a lesser hazard, that extension of the more demanding requirement might make it moot . But as is often the case, we don’t have all the information needed to make any definitive recommendations/statements on the situation beyond the direction the Standard provides. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME – Special Hazards | [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS From: Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 12:05 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Below Mezzanine Sorry if this is a little crude, but the EOR is tripping balls and stuff like this is starting really piss me off. Our firm has worked REALLY hard to develop state-of-the-art skills (Revit-based design, a high-level of knowledge regarding codes and standards) up and down our staff roster and these are the people we are competing against. “Obstruction” is a defined term and you can certainly classify a mezzanine as one, but if you read the cited section, it clearly implies that you are protecting the same area from below the obstruction as from the ceiling above it. It’s one fire area, which a mezzanine is not. Say you have a high hazard like Group A to 30’ under a 35’ roof, that is protected by ESFR. Under a 12’ mezzanine you have 10’ of storage – possibly even Group A - and it’s a different occupancy hazard class. Now you have adjacent hazards (§20.10 in the 2019) and it’s a completely different context with regard to sprinkler selection and that section gives us guidance regarding the two ceiling heights – see §20.10.1(3). The language of 9.5.5.3.3 is intended to assure adequate discharge density over a particular (higher hazard in this case) fire load; I think you have to be of a CYA mindset or worse to read it any other way. You may want to inform the owner of the project that their consultant is pissing away thousand$$ of their money for no good reason. My opinion only, Steve L. From: Joe Burtell [MT-BILL] <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 8:43 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Below Mezzanine Both structures are steel construction, roof is steel deck, steel open girders and joists. Mezzanine is steel beams, open grating, and steel plate for walkways. I’m not questioning if sprinklers are needed, I agree they are, I am questioning if they need to be ESFR to match the overhead or they can be different (CMDA, etc..) [image001.jpg] Joe Burtell | SET, CFPS Fire Sprinkler Manager D C 406-204-4653<tel:406-204-4653> 406-861-4507<tel:406-861-4507> From: Prahl, Craig <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 9:28 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Below Mezzanine CAUTION: This email originated from outside the organization. Do not follow guidance, click links, or open attachments unless you KNOW the content is safe. A mezzanine is an obstruction to overhead sprinklers. Of that there is no doubt. Sprinklers need to be provide under the mezzanines as noted in the cited NFPA 13 section. Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Fire Protection SME – Special Hazards | [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> | www.jacobs.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.jacobs.com/__;!!KZTdOCjhgt4hgw!-_khxU8gU0_6jc895I7kRbnU8JghRDsWgqOblZ4jr7Qp2IVbR30VYw_hWvNFtphnl0uWpB9KIvbYi1pvZz4$> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 CONTACT BY: Phone 1-864-676-5252, Email or MS TEAMS From: Joe Burtell [MT-BILL] <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 9:23 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] ESFR Below Mezzanine I have a soda manufacturing warehouse with ESFR at the roof deck. They are building out some mezzanines in the middle of the warehouse that will have bottling equipment. The engineer is requiring that below the mezzanine have ESFR per NFPA 13 2019 9.5.5.3.3. I am questioning if the mezzanine is really treated like an obstruction? I think it would be treated like in-racks would and have its own design based on what’s under the mezzanine. [image001.jpg] Joe Burtell | SET, CFPS Fire Sprinkler Manager D C 406-204-4653<tel:406-204-4653> 406-861-4507<tel:406-861-4507> 3004 1st Ave South Billings , MT 59101 Office: 406‑652‑7697 www.summitfiresecurity.com<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.summitfiresecurity.com__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!FzWefsxguMXLMMbjMLpaQSGEn8ZDKtVk8zEzI6o24UsVewq_MXB3dLkqQtmzX2oDwKQ3aaFkX2W0zPKniNKj8Sfkax49$> This information transmitted, including attachments, is intended only for the person(s) or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. 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