Great point, Bob. It is my intent to recommend the reductions not be combined. I felt that was correct initially, but the wording of the section in the standard was proving to be troublesome.
Thank you, Micah Davis (931) 242-1299 On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 8:29 AM <[email protected]> wrote: > Micah, > > > > I understand your project will be reviewed based on the language in the > 2029 edition of NFPA 13. However, section 1.5 Equivalency allows you to use > alternate arrangements with technical documentation submitted to the AHJ. > What better way to show the level of safety is not being lowered, than to > share the language from the next edition of the standard? > > > > Yes, the letter of the law is important, but so is the intent. We know > what we know when we know it and the arrangement of sprinklers or allowable > modifiers in design applications that will exist in the next edition > provide clarity and more so, in this case, a literal interpretation of this > section, from the entire balloted committee. > > > > I would encourage you to adopt Mr. Denhardt’s advice and share it with > your AHJ. > > > > This is (of course) just my personal opinion and not intended to sound > condescending in any way > > > > Best regards, > > > > Bob > > > > > > > > *Bob Caputo, CFPS* > > *President* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > > c: 760-908-7753 > > p: > > 214-349-5965 ext124 > > w: > > firesprinkler.org > > <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> > <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/> > <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> > > > > *Treat Your Apprentices Like VIPs!* > > AFSA’s Virtual Instruction Program (VIP) for Apprentices is training that > comes straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way to ensure > your men and women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. Click here > <https://www.firesprinkler.org/sprinkler-apprentice-training/> to learn > more and enroll > > > > *From:* Micah Davis <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 19, 2024 7:09 AM > *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: EH 11k & High Temp RA reduction > > > > Thank you, John. That is MUCH clearer. Unfortunately, the project in > question is under the 2019 edition which leaves us with the uncertain > language. Your feedback helps me with my next steps, though. > > > > Thank you, > Micah Davis > (931) 242-1299 > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 12:40 AM John Denhardt < > [email protected]> wrote: > > For the 2025 edition of NFPA 13, the proposed language is below: > > > > Second Revision number 1084 > > > > *19.2.3.2.7 *Extra Hazard Occupancies. > *19.2.3.2.7.1 * > For extra hazard occupancies with ceilings not exceeding 30 ft (9.1 m) in > height, the system area of sprinkler operation shall be permitted to be > reduced by 25 percent without revising the density, but not to less than > 2000 ft2 (185 m2). where one of the following conditions occurs: > (1) High-temperature sprinklers are used. > (2) K-11.2 (160) or larger sprinklers are used. > > *19.2.3.2.7.2* > > The 25 percent reduction permitted by 19.2.3.2.7.1 shall only be permitted > to applied once. > > > > *This language is pretty clear to me. * > > > > *The technical committee statement for this second revision is telling:* > > The current structure for the 25% reduction is unclear that the reduction > can only be taken once with either high-temperature sprinklers or large > orifice sprinklers. This revision makes the intent of the section clearer > and will clarify the application of the requirements for multiple > adjustments. Based on the fire testing data available at this time, the > ceiling heights have been limited to 30 feet in height for taking the > reduction. > > > > > > *While this language looks like it will make it into the 2025 edition of > NFPA 13, it still is subject to change until the Standards Council approves > the release of this document around September 2024.* > > > > > *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee > Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no > liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be > considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its > technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting > engineering services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, > nor relied upon, as such.* > > > > Thanks, > > John > > > > [image: Image removed by sender.] > > John August Denhardt, PE > > *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > > m: p: > > 301-343-1457 > 214-349-5965 ext 121 > > w: > > firesprinkler.org > > > > > > *Treat Your Apprentices Like VIPs!* > > AFSA’s Virtual Instruction Program (VIP) for Apprentices is training that > comes straight from our expert instructors. They lead the way to ensure > your men and women are trained, letting you focus on OJT. Click here > <https://www.firesprinkler.org/sprinkler-apprentice-training/> to learn > more and enroll. > > > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2024 at 3:16 PM John Denhardt <[email protected]> > wrote: > > For this, high temperature or 11.2K is allowed, not both. > > > > I’m currently on a plane but I will quote you the reference later today. > > > > Either or, not both. > > > > John > > John August Denhardt, P.E. > > Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services > > American Fire Sprinkler Association > > 301-343-1457 > > > > On Mar 18, 2024, at 15:03, Mike Morey <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I believe the intent was always that the K11.2 reduction was an > alternative to high temp heads and not intended to allow both but it was > never spelled out (other than that omission perhaps). The revisions to the > next edition are significant, but this item is consolidated into one that > says you can take 25% reduction to no less than 2000 for one or the other. > > > > *Mike Morey* > > *CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677* > > *Project Manager* • Fire Protection Group > *Shambaugh & Son, LP **an EMCOR Company* > > 7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825 > > *direct *260.487.7824* / cell *260.417.0625* / fax *260.487.7991 > *email *[email protected] > > <image001.png> > > > > *From:* Micah Davis <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Monday, March 18, 2024 2:51 PM > *To:* SprinklerForum <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] EH 11k & High Temp RA reduction > > > > Hey everyone! I need some help with the application of the remote area > adjustment provisions in Chapter 19 (2019) of NFPA 13. 19. 3. 3. 2. 8 > addresses multiple adjustments but, interestingly, omits 19. 3. 3. 2. 7 > in the list. Should I interpret > > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart > > *This Message Is From an Untrusted Sender * > > You have not previously corresponded with this sender. > > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd > > Hey everyone! I need some help with the application of the remote area > adjustment provisions in Chapter 19 (2019) of NFPA 13. 19.3.3.2.8 > addresses multiple adjustments but, interestingly, omits 19.3.3.2.7 in the > list. Should I interpret this to mean that no other adjustments for EH > design areas can be applied if the 11.2k or larger reduction is used? > > > > Thank you, > > Micah Davis > > Ferguson Fire Design > > 931-242-1299 > > This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain > confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. No > confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If > you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all > copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the > sender. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, > print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended > recipient. > > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > [email protected] > > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > [email protected] > > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > [email protected] >
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