I think that engineers telling other engineers (military) that something isn't
sufficient is making a lot of assumptions that should not be made.
And if you want to propose some solution, then define the metrics of that
solution. First,
what is max latency/jitter/whatever that the application can handle and still
be useful?
Why exactly is your ham thing failing, and what latency/jitter would resolve
it. And/or, what mitigation
in your software/procedures would solve it.
I know that Dave & crew have made some improvements to the wifi stack, but it
is far from
solved even today. Maybe effort is better done on wifi where developers that
are not @spacex
can actually make changes and test results.
Thanks,
Ben
On 9/26/22 1:04 PM, Bruce Perens via Starlink wrote:
Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with:
*Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say Scientists*
The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but another satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others have questions about
sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's /latency/ and /jitter. A/s load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get through,
increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought /bufferbloat, /a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX needs to upgrade their
system to use the scientist's Open Source modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mostly just using a newer version, but
there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a /change/ in the speed of getting a packet through the network during a connection, which is inevitable in
satellite networks, but will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably with the addition of more satellites.
/We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their software, /said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator and creator
of the X Window System, chimed in: <fill in here please>
Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: /sometimes Starlink's latency and jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. But the military
is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't happen at *scale* without
adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies./
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
The key issue is most people don’t understand why latency matters. They
don’t see it or feel it’s impact.
First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it
impacts something they care about.
- gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous.
- musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby.
- business should care because of productivity but they don’t know how to
“see” the impact.
Second, there needs to be a “OMG, I have been seeing the action of latency
all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.” Once you have this
awakening, you can get all the press you want for free.
Most of the time when business apps are developed, “we” hide the impact of
poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because the
developers don’t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don’t care
because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad
economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if
they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don’t know that latency
is hurting them. Unfair but most people don’t know the issue is latency.
Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing
why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person impact.
Gene
-----------------------------------
Eugene Chang
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
+1-781-799-0233(in Honolulu)
On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place articles
with various press if there is something interesting to say. Did this all
through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is write, sign,
and publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant if they
publish a link to our statement.
Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to
be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is
interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't
see happening /at scale /without some technical work on the network. Being able
to say this isn't ready for the government's application would be an
attention-getter.
Thanks
Bruce
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page
ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!",
signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would
go a long way towards shifting the tide.
On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason
> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
> >
> > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly
unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of background
briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video explainer that is
short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will just continue to
focus on what they know...
>
> That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington
> correspondents dinner, but perhaps
> there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend?
>
> >
> > On 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink"
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> on behalf of
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> > I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing the
> > meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending:
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blog.cerowrt.org_post_state-5Fof-5Ffq-5Fcodel_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=HYKqseB9xg-u2kz3egvegqfgyXnEBhQotXfR3iCfdgM&m=blDX6_rxt44xEoPiFsiJL_Lzz5vd5qQX5frndqg1CgQ&s=2IZ5wDH8NR59vMB84GYAMU19Drz7WqKmMbEK0HO4tQI&e=>
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
--
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blog.cerowrt.org_post_state-5Fof-5Ffq-5Fcodel_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=HYKqseB9xg-u2kz3egvegqfgyXnEBhQotXfR3iCfdgM&m=blDX6_rxt44xEoPiFsiJL_Lzz5vd5qQX5frndqg1CgQ&s=2IZ5wDH8NR59vMB84GYAMU19Drz7WqKmMbEK0HO4tQI&e=>
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
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Ben Greear <[email protected]>
Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com
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