You already know this. Bufferbloat is a symptom and not the cause. Bufferbloat grows when there are (1) periods of low or no bandwidth or (2) periods of insufficient bandwidth (aka network congestion).
If I understand this correctly, just a software update cannot make bufferbloat go away. It might improve the speed of recovery (e.g. throw away all time sensitive UDP messages). Gene ---------------------------------------------- Eugene Chang IEEE Senior Life Member [email protected] 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > On Sep 26, 2022, at 10:04 AM, Bruce Perens <[email protected]> wrote: > > Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with: > > Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say Scientists > > The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but another > satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others have questions > about sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's latency and > jitter. As load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get > through, increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought > bufferbloat, a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX needs > to upgrade their system to use the scientist's Open Source modifications to > Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mostly just > using a newer version, but there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a > change in the speed of getting a packet through the network during a > connection, which is inevitable in satellite networks, but will be improved > by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably with the > addition of more satellites. > > We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their > software, said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator and > creator of the X Window System, chimed in: <fill in here please> > Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: sometimes Starlink's latency and > jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. But the > military is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the battlefield > and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't happen at scale > without adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies. > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > The key issue is most people don’t understand why latency matters. They don’t > see it or feel it’s impact. > > First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it impacts > something they care about. > - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous. > - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby. > - business should care because of productivity but they don’t know how to > “see” the impact. > > Second, there needs to be a “OMG, I have been seeing the action of latency > all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.” Once you have this > awakening, you can get all the press you want for free. > > Most of the time when business apps are developed, “we” hide the impact of > poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because the > developers don’t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don’t care > because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad > economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if > they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don’t know that > latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people don’t know the issue is > latency. > > Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing why > latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person impact. > > Gene > ----------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > > > > > >> On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> wrote: >> >> If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place articles >> with various press if there is something interesting to say. Did this all >> through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is write, sign, and >> publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant if they >> publish a link to our statement. >> >> Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to be >> a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is >> interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't see >> happening at scale without some technical work on the network. Being able to >> say this isn't ready for the government's application would be an >> attention-getter. >> >> Thanks >> >> Bruce >> >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> wrote: >> These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page >> ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!", >> signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would >> go a long way towards shifting the tide. >> >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason >> > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > > >> > > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly >> > > unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of >> > > background briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video >> > > explainer that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will >> > > just continue to focus on what they know... >> > >> > That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington >> > correspondents dinner, but perhaps >> > there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend? >> > >> > > >> > > On 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink" >> > > <[email protected] >> > > <mailto:[email protected]> on behalf of >> > > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing the >> > > meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > FQ World Domination pending: >> > https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >> > <https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/> >> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> >> >> -- >> FQ World Domination pending: >> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >> <https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/> >> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> >> >> >> -- >> Bruce Perens K6BP >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink> > > > > -- > Bruce Perens K6BP
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