Dear all, Refering to some of the questions on the list, I have just suggested to the WG on Technology and Fuel as a Quick Win to provide, a "Lessons Learned Library" available on the web, to avoid spending a lot of time and efforts to reinvent well known processes and earlier discoveries. Otto
> From: Paal wendelbo [[email protected]] > Sent: 2011-01-21 09:36:31 MET > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [[email protected]] > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Questions on coal-burning possible TLUD > > Dear Dr Paul TLUD and Crispin. > > Let us agree on one thing about TLUD, it is not a name of a type of a stove, > It's more a description how you ignite the fuel in the stove. So there can > be doubt about if your Champion stove in that context is a real TLUD. It > can easy be ignited from the bottom through the primary air intake. And most > people will probably do that. Tom Reeds FD and Peko Pe-ND and some few > others is real "TLUDs" It is not possible to ignite from the bottom. Any way > it is now accepted as a name of a specific stove. > > In Norway we have had cast iron wood fuel stoves for cooking and heating > connected to chimney for 200 years. Mostly all of them where ignited from > underneath of the fuel, with a lot of smoke, soot and tar and in the > chimney. In my cast-iron stove I started ignite from top of the fuel and got > a complete different combustion with out any smoke, soot and tar in the > chimney. I learned this during 2nd WW when we were hunting illegally and > had to make up fire for cooking without smoke. > > We had also some circular coal stoves for heating 50 years ago. They were > ignited with firewood on top of the fuel.. > > In Masindi Forestry Training Centre in Uganda in 1996 we tested the Peko Pe > with > > charcoal and it performed about 20% better than the improved charcoal stove. > And another test comparison 1kg charcoal in charcoal stove and ½ kg straw in > the Peko Pe. One litre of water was boiling before charcoal was ignited with > same amount of of straw.. > > With regards Paal W > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul S. Anderson" <[email protected]> > To: "Crispin Pemberton-Pigott" <[email protected]>; "STOVES - > Listserve" <[email protected]> > Cc: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:47 AM > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Questions on coal-burning possible TLUD > > > > Chrispin, > > > > Thanks for the thoughful response. > > -- > > Quoting Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <[email protected]>: > > > >> Dear Paul > >> > >> Coal is compressed biomass. > > > > Yes it is. And biomass is simply sunlight transformed by plants. > > > > Let's not be simplistic about this. The Silver is a fossil fuel burner. > > And coal and biomass are very distinct as fuel, regardless of their > > origin from sunlight plus C and H and O and a bit more. > > > > And your information leads me to have little interest. ($200, heavy, > > high-internal heat would pyrolyze biomass in perhaps irregular ways, > > nobody is using it with biomass - because it is not intended for biomass > > and the Turkish users have learned that lesson well) > > > > So, let's not get excited as if this recognition of a stove from Turkey > > will alter the past, present or future of TLUD cookstoves. TLUD stoves > > (as a NAME, not as a process) have characteristics that go beyond top lit > > and updraft, and the name refers to devices that use biomass, not fossil > > fuels. > > > > In my opinion, the "Silver" unit is a very nice distraction from all the > > work being done on biomass burning TLUDs and other micro-gasifiers. I > > hope that someone spends a few years full-time with this (and related) > > coal-burning technologies and makes some great advances. But as it stands > > now, the discovery or re-discovery of this Turkey product will have > > minimal impact on the progress needed for the Global Alliance for Clean > > Cookstoves. > > > > I can hope that someone will show that I am incorrect. > > > > Paul > > -- > > Paul S. Anderson, PhD > > Known to some as: Dr. TLUD Doc Professor > > Phone (USA): 309-452-7072 SKYPE: paultlud Email: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > >>> Good explanation and thanks for the photos. Certainly seems like a > >> reasonable heater and stove. > >> > >> It has problems which are easily rectified. The casting quality is really > >> high. > >> > >>> 1. I will distinguish the "Silver" stove based on it being a coal > >>> burner. > >> > >> It should be able to burn any really dense fuel. If it was small enough, > >> it > >> might do with small pellets. > >> > >>> I believe the Silver is substantially larger in diameter of fuel chamber > >> than is John's. > >> > >> It is taller and larger, for a total of about twice the maximum capacity, > >> however it is not the smallest model. I tested the middle-sized one for > >> the > >> reason that it was the smallest one that has a round hole on top to > >> accept a > >> wok. > >> > >>> 2. In what way would the Silver NOT be accomplishing what we all seek > >> > >> Price and availability are issues, plus the tweaks that will be need to > >> make > >> it a super stove. It is nearly there. Rumour has it the price is in the > >> $200 > >> range. > >> > >>> ...appropriate for Mongolia or even the High Veldt of South Africa where > >> coal is abundant > >> > >> Well coal is used if far more places than that. Hundreds of millions of > >> people cook and heat with coal from Eastern Europe to Vietnam. > >> > >>> 3. This Silver stove needs further study, meaning access to the > >>> devices. > >> We want to see and know that the top-ignited fuel does create a migrating > >> pyrolysis front (MPF for short, not as a name). > >> > >> I don't see that micro-classifying it is important. It is just another > >> batch > >> loaded TLUD. It might even work well with dung because it is large enough > >> to > >> generate meaningful heat. > >> > >>> Much more about its emissions needs to be promptly known and, if low, be > >> recognized. > >> > >> The emissions are about 99% lower than the baseline stove, somewhat > >> higher > >> than the (cheaper) GTZ 7.5 which is the only other stove that burns in > >> that > >> category. > >> > >>> 4. Would this Silver unit function with dry biomass? If not, why not. > >> > >> The main reason would be the overheating of the chamber. I suspect that > >> as > >> it gets so hot there would be over-running gas generation if thermal > >> conductivity turns out to be too high. It is not a big issue in that it > >> is > >> not advertised or intended as a wood stove anyway. > >> > >>> And if successful, why does it take until 2011 to recognize this, but > >>> NOT > >> use it with wood anywhere? > >> > >> You only find what you are looking for, perhaps? > >> > >>> Have the 53 years of users been somehow missing such an observation? > >> > >> Well it certainly was not missed in Turkey! > >> > >> Other than the fuel dumping mechanism (which is integrated to the grate > >> shaking mechanism) there is nothing special about it. We have an issue > >> with > >> it (like all batch stoves) which is that it can't be refuelled when it is > >> hot without creating massive smoke. It has to be cooled first. Will > >> people > >> wait?? > >> > >> Simply turning it upside down to made a bottom lit downdraft stove would > >> cure that and might even reduce emissions further. This disadvantage > >> there > >> is the cooking efficiency drops. For space heating it is looking like a > >> no-brainer. > >> > >> Regards > >> Crispin > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > The Stoves list has moved to [email protected] - please > > update your email contacts to reflect the change. > > > > Please visit BioEnergy Discussion Lists > > http://info.bioenergylists.org/ > > Thank you, Stoves > > Administrator > > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org > > http://info.bioenergylists.org > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE HERE; > > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > The Stoves list has moved to [email protected] - please > update your email contacts to reflect the change. > > Please visit BioEnergy Discussion Lists > http://info.bioenergylists.org/ > Thank you, Stoves > Administrator > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org > http://info.bioenergylists.org > > UNSUBSCRIBE HERE; > http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_listserv.repp.org >
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