There is a reality that new technology generally gets a "honeymoon" grace
period during which it is generally agreed that the technology has promise
but only the gurus truly understand it and everyone else simply throws
buzzwords around about it and oversells/overuses it ("it can solve all our
problems!").
Eventually, the technology is revealed for what it is ("it can't solve all
our problems?") and then the search is on for better understanding and the
next new technologies.
I think the Struts "honeymoon" is waning as the powers that be finally
understand that Struts doesn't generally fix bad code, bad requirements, or
unrealistic schedules and it definitely doesn't turn bad programmers into
good ones.
It is simply a good web architecture/framework product with a good name and
some good resources behind it.
Would I use Struts again? Probably, but I'll keep my eyes open for
something better.
-----Original Message-----
From: James Mitchell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 2:50 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
On Sat, 2003-03-29 at 10:02, Dan Tran wrote:
> James Michell is out of work? Me too. How many good ppl are in the same
> situation these days?
Well, I'm not actually out of work yet, but my current contract is
almost over and I've been looking for months.
As much as I love to evangelize Struts, there just aren't very many jobs
out there.
>
> Sorry for breaking out of the rythm.
>
> -D
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Micael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 12:05 AM
> Subject: RE: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
>
>
> If you have a good lead person on your team, that makes all the
> difference. Someone has to know what they are doing, and then everyone
> speeds up. That is especially true if you are using the pluses of the
> Xtremists.
>
> There are lots of good people out there to take these positions. I
> understand James Mitchell is looking for work and I would hire him at the
> drop of a hat, if I had a position, which I don't. My sense is that there
> are a lot of good people that can take Struts out the door, today,
anywhere.
>
> Struts is not the problem. Struts is the solution. There are other
> simpler frameworks, like Maverick. You can even build your own
> framework. Struts is a pretty good framework (I take "pretty good" to be
> very good) that you can also tweak. I personally wish that the Struts
> people would just take the bull by the horns and make a big shift in the
> framework, using all the things that have been learned since its
> inception. I probably am not as smart as they are in this respect. There
> is a pretty huge change, however, in 1.1 which is really welcomed.
>
> At 01:54 AM 3/29/03 -0600, you wrote:
> >I think you can do the "kid in a candy store" thing with Struts all too
> >easily. As with any project, make sure you set your goals in a design
doc,
> >just because struts can do it, doesn't mean you should do it.
> >
> >I had a project hit a wall because my boss kept asking if I could do this
> >and that, "yeah, struts can allow me to do that..." "Okay, why don't we
add
> >that then..."
> >
> >-Jacob
> >
> >| -----Original Message-----
> >| From: Navjot Singh [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >| Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 9:51 PM
> >| To: Struts Users List
> >| Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
> >|
> >| here are my 2 cents to this discussion ;-)
> >|
> >| Initially, the development with struts can be slow. I won't say Struts
is
> >| complex, it is easy but to create a simple form submission you got to
> have
> >| quite a number of files in set up. But slowly the things get sunk into
> >| your
> >| mind and then it's real fast process.
> >| However, the speed can be increased with tools like Easystruts and IDEs
> >| giving extensive support to Struts.
> >|
> >| - navjot singh
> >|
> >| ----- Original Message -----
> >| From: "Igor Shabalov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >| To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >| Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:26 AM
> >| Subject: Re: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
> >|
> >|
> >| >
> >| > I 100% agree, Struts is good staff for use by the end of the day, but
> it
> >| > can slow development process. So, can we do something to reduce that
> >| > "backslash"? My answer is yes, by introducing tools that helps
> >| developers
> >| > to "fight" with Struts complexity. Can Struts be better from
functional
> >| > prospective? Of course yes, however, it can increase complexity even
> >| more,
> >| > so we see more demand for good tools.
> >| >
> >| > Once again, I do not to offend anybody.
> >| >
> >| > Thank you for answer,
> >| > Igor.
> >| >
> >| > On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:30:20 -0500, Mark Zeltser
> >| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >| >
> >| > > Plus all QA work each of us does by testing struts in different
> >| > > environments.
> >| > >
> >| > > Igor,
> >| > >
> >| > > In our experience, struts will decrease initial productivity due to
> >| the
> >| > > learning
> >| > > curve. However, this will be time well spent, assuming you will be
> >| > > getting
> >| > > maintainable application, plus struts is widely used, so there is a
> >| good
> >| > > chance you
> >| > > will be able to find talent if needed.
> >| > >
> >| > > Re. individual components. Start with well defined directory
> structure
> >| > > for your
> >| > > source, images, etc. and ant based build script. Keep adding
> >| > > functionality as you
> >| > > feel that there is a need for it. (E.g.: need to authenticate
users.
> >| > > Before
> >| > > implementing your own authentication search the archives, you will
> >| find
> >| > > that a lot
> >| > > of problems were already discussed and solved)
> >| > >
> >| > > Mark.
> >| > >
> >| > > David Graham wrote:
> >| > >
> >| > >> I don't have real numbers but thousands of hours of work from many
> >| > >> highly
> >| > >> paid software engineers has gone into Struts. Say an average
> >| developer
> >| > >> gets
> >| > >> $50/hour * 2000 hours (probably low) = $100,000.
> >| > >>
> >| > >> Does your company or your clients want to pay that much to develop
> >| their
> >| > >> own
> >| > >> framework?
> >| > >>
> >| > >> David
> >| > >>
> >| > >> >From: Igor Shabalov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >| > >> >Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <struts-
> >| [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >| > >> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >| > >> >Subject: Do Struts increase developer productivity?
> >| > >> >Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 14:00:00 -0800
> >| > >> >
> >| > >> >
> >| > >> > Hello, all!
> >| > >> > Do anybody have any data how using Struts can increase (or
> >| > >> decrease)
> >| > >> >developer productivity. I mean, for example, â??using Strutsâ??
can
> >| > >> save up
> >| > >> >to xx% of development cost. Or save up to xx% of development
effort
> >| (in
> >| > >> >terms of number of lines of code) etc.
> >| > >> > And, if Struts really help, what portion of struts
> technolody
> >| > >> helps more
> >| > >> >â?? tag libraries, controller with actions, tiles or anything
else.
> >| > >> I
> >| > >> >understand that depends too much from specific project â?? but I
> >| need
> >| > >> just
> >| > >> >raff estimations (or wild speculations)
> >| > >> >
> >| > >> > Thank at advance,
> >| > >> > Igor.
> >| > >> >
> >| > >> >
> >| > >> >--
> >| > >> >Igor Shabalov
> >| > >> >Director of Engineering
> >| > >> >Exadel Inc.
> >| > >> >http://www.exadel.com
> >| > >> >
> >| > >>
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >| >
> >| >
> >| >
> >| > --
> >| > Igor Shabalov
> >| > Director of Engineering
> >| > Exadel Inc.
> >| > http://www.exadel.com
> >| >
> >| > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
James Mitchell
Software Developer/Struts Evangelist
http://www.open-tools.org
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