Dana Linscott wrote: >Rawls, >Count me in please. I am very interested in discussing >the how to's of setting up a small business that >produces biodiesel in the US. I know that there have >been several others from this list that have indicated >interest in a business oriented biofuel list also. I >would encourage those folks to sign up and >participate. > >Although the Yahoo biofuels list is very useful there >are several useful subjects which I no longer feel >free to discuss on it. I believe that those >considering starting a small biodiesel business should >be free to discuss any related subject and I for one >find this is no longer possible on the biofuels list >due to the number of flaming responses from those of >opposing viewpoints and the wishes of the moderator to >keep the biofuels archives free of info that might be >interpreted as biofuel negative. > >To be fair to Keith it may be best to have a place >other than his biofuels list where those that wish to >discuss such things can do so freely. > >I look forward to the discussion. > >Dana Liscott > >--- Rawls Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Group - I have set up a group (biofuelmanufacturer) > > on yahoo to discuss > > topics pertaining to starting a small biofuel > > co-op/business. Please email > > me @ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (the group is invitation > > only) if you are > > interested in joining or if you have any questions. > > > > Thanks, > > Rawls Moore
Do I really have to put up with this? I don't think so, personally, and, more important, generally. First, regarding what goes into the archives: >... and the wishes of the moderator to >keep the biofuels archives free of info that might be >interpreted as biofuel negative. Dana was pulled up, by me and others, for stating that poorly made biodiesel wrecks engines and produces emissions that are worse than petrodiesel's. He was asked for some support for his statements, and someone (not me) pointed out that it was rash to let such stuff get into the archives, which after all is indexed by the major search engines. But Dana just repeated his claims and failed to produce any support for them, other than bluster and dismissal. What I and others do not wish to see in the archives is disinformation, not "information" that might be interpreted as biofuel negative. Biodiesel can happily withstand any honest encounter with facts, but rumour-mongering and spin are a different matter. It's obvious enough, isn't it? People will not be encouraged to make or use biodiesel if their Internet search leads them here to find rumours that it wrecks engines and makes nasty emissions. Also, plenty of folks here believe that the big corporations, Big Oil, Big Government, people like Volvo, the usual suspects, are just waiting for ammunition to use against anything that threatens their control over energy issues, such as little guys like most of us. Many believe that's what lies behind what happened to Yellow Biodiesel, who as we know just got shut down. There are people here who can attest to the fact that I'm very interested in any real information on badly made biodiesel wrecking engines - where are all the wrecked engines? They're highly noticeable by their very absence. One would expect them to be there. If indeed they do exist, we should know about it. Then we can find out why and take steps to remedy it, to forestall any more wrecked engines that might serve as a discouragement to others, or as ready ammo for any enemies of biofuels. Anyone know of a wrecked engine? Please, tell us about it - and let it go into the archives, with my blessing, along with any and all following discussion and, one would hope, with some confidence, a solution to the problem. Okay? Next, as regards free discussion here or the lack thereof, I'll confirm that there are at least two important subjects that are indeed not being discussed here on this list which should be, especially as both of them were initiated here, and discussion of just such issues is exactly why this list was started. This riles me more than somewhat. In one case, those concerned do indeed feel that it is impossible to discuss the subject here freely. That is largely because of the behaviour of a troll named Dana Linscott who hijacked it, for questionable reasons (questioned by many and found wanting), and caused a great deal of disruption and unpleasantness. It's being discussed elsewhere, and to some avail, at least. Which is all I'll be saying about that. The other case is a bit different, and I'll examine it a bit more closely. That concerned biodiesel processes using solid catalysts. It came up here when Arne Rayson asked for information on the INEEL process (Fox and Ginosar). This wasn't the first time it came up, and each time I've tried to encourage the discussion in the hope that we might uncover something of use to small-scale processors and backyarders, which I think is the interest of most of us here. Anyway, this time quite a few people got involved. David Cruse posted the INEEL patent, as well as further discussion, other similar patents were posted, John Harris posted a link to the supercritical methanol method developed at Kyoto (which I'd previously posted a ref to, two years ago, and patent info for, one year ago), I posted some information on Dow's solid catalysts sent to me by Mike Pelly. Paddy, Christian, Marc, Andrˇs, Glenn, Ted, John (indo2002nz), Greg, Roger, Jack and Dana all contributed. But the discussion here ended about two months ago, when Dana proposed forming a separate, closed group, led by him, to investigate the subject thoroughly. "Of course this type of continuous process biodiesel/glycerin production would REVOLUTIONIZE home production of BD if made available," he told us. So he formed the group, called "thnktnk", at Yahoo, by invitation only, with eight members, all from the Biofuels list. Dana wrote to them: "I am forming a project team with a primary goal of quickly gathering and compiling all the available information on Biodiesel production using alternative (to traditional) methods. The secondary goal will be to determine which of these alternative methods if any hold the greatest promise of being applied to small (home) scale biodiesel production." And a bit later: "We will attempt to: 1. Quickly and thoroughly research currently existing promising alternative methods of Biodiesel production which do not involve methoxide as a catalyst. 2. Determine which of these methods have the highest probability of use as a simple, practical, small scale method of Biodiesel production." The job should be finished in three weeks, he said. The new group duly set to work with a will, researching, sorting, investigating, posting ideas, leads, urls and papers. But it was not well coordinated - leads were missed, or ignored, or dropped along the way. Several times it veered off into cul-de-sacs, or into processes that were anything but small-scale. One such was with supercritical methanol, as first posted here by John Harris. Not a comforting thing to think about, supercritical methanol. The process happens at 80 atmospheres of pressure, 1,200 psi or more, and 350-400 deg C (652-752 deg F) - not something you want loose in your kitchen. But Dana saw it as very promising. The idea was bandied about in the group and developed further, but most of the members rejected it in favour of something more suitable to small-scale use, the stated purpose of the exercise, such as solid catalysts, and went ahead with that. Dana posted this message to the thnktnk group on 8 Feb: "... I do want to concentrate on what looks the most promising. Frankly, I think that even the 10 gal/week home fuel maker might be able to take advantage of the supercritical methanol method as even a 1 oz per 10 minute cycle would easily produce that much. I have to wonder though if any method is practical/economical for BD production that low... even the methoxide method." (The average motorist in the US uses 600 gallons of fuel a year - about 10 gallons a week. Homescale production isn't practical or economical??) And that was the last message Dana posted to his group, more than a month ago. Without any direction, the group has died, no more discussion, everything left hanging in the air, and nothing accomplished. If individual members have since uncovered anything of use they haven't been encouraged to share it with an apparently dead group. So much for the great solid catalyst initiative. Not quite, however - one thing did emerge. A few days ago, amid all the stuff about BSE, Neal van Milliken posted this: "RE: thermal cracking. I have been looking at the process of producing biodiesel from a medium sized producer point of view. If someone could spend $4,000,000 to make 1500 gal of biodiesel an hour with little additional inputs besides heat, it could be something. Biomass heat or parasitic load could provide the 735 F temperature. "... what I am after there is an automated biodiesel production facility with as few issues as possible. I recognize that high value products are lost in thermal cracking but the system is simple and inexpensive to operate, if not to buy." Fair enough, if also not exactly for the kitchen, as Neal readily admitted. Dana responded: >Neal, > >I am interested in discussing thermal cracking and >have been doing some research regarding the use of >supercritical methanol as a relativly simple to >automate scalable transesterification process. > >I will restrain myself from extraneous editorial >comment here lest I be the subject of ridicule as you >seem to have been. Had enough of that already. Would >you be interested in discussing this off list? > >Dana So now we know. So much for "home production of BD", "small (home) scale biodiesel production", "a simple, practical, small scale method of Biodiesel production" and so on. You got what you wanted, eh, Dana? At everyone else's expense. Your group got nothing for their work, while this group was denied the potential fruits of an initiative they started. "Free discussion" indeed! But that's an end to it. Exit one troll, goodbye. End of story. Now let's get back to business. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuels list owner ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. 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