Hi Folks,
The direction of all my questions is driving towards the heading of Appropriate Technology, in this instance it is for the remote highlanders who are too poor for any industrialised goods, and perhaps not that sophisticated to handle what we have except for the TV and the booze to sooth away the rough edges in surviving out there. I am hoping to tap the brain waves which I can feel the transmission whilst reading the "toing and froing" of the messages. Keith, you are right, we need those techniques that you just alluded in http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html. The practitioners ( expatriate community and Singaporeans alike ) now call it CHE, acronym for Community, Health and Education Development. At the same time, Foreign Direct Investment ( FDI ) opens many local eyes of the transformation this economic development has done to the industrialised estates and the key cities in Asia. Especially the "Asian Dragons". Many poor are clamouring FDI to get them out of the hole. I feel we need to have MED ( Micro Enterprise Development ) as the tool to first initiate them in Income Generating Activities ( IGA ) and later in small businesses with the prospect of scaling up as demands drive the business volume. With that, FDI will come in for the range of the luxuries which the West is accustomed to. For me it is a personal experience seen first hand. In 1963, from Singapore, we were sending back to Fujian, an Eastern China Province, cooking oil and bicycles to our kins who begged us to help. Today, the savvy Chinese are listing their companies in Singapore, coming in droves as tourists and same even can afford to compete with us to buy the better properties and vehicles in town. All these happened in less than 40 years! Back to basic. We have CHE, MED and now Appropriate Technology. Keith mentioned obliquely how lacquered bamboo strip on the conical hat maybe able to keep the gas under a specific PSI as a holding tank. That is utilising local resource, bamboo. What else relating to SAR as raw sewerage of human beings and animals are involved? Regards.........EONG ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ -----Original Message----- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 20:34 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] biogas storage >Hi Robert and all, > >Remember the folks applying the technology is from the abject poor area of >the Mekong Watershed ( Highland areas ) Region cover countries like Myanmar, >Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia and part of Western Provinces of Tibet, >Yunnan, Sichuan and Guangxi. Can goat/cow hide be a reasonable substitute >for rubber bladders or drums? Have you seen this page at our site? http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Community development - poverty and hunger Especially this bit: Eight questions that will tell if a community will truly benefit from a development project: 1. What are the most pressing needs of this community? 2. Is the proposed project addressing these needs? 3. Is there participation by the community in the process of: - Identifying key problems? - Planning realistic solutions? - Carrying out the plans? - Measuring the success of the project? 4. Is the project financially and logistically feasible? 5. Will the community permanently benefit from the project? 6. Will the beneficiaries achieve empowerment in terms of: - Economic independence? - Control of resources and decisions? - Self-confidence that they can make a difference? 7. Will the project have a positive impact on the environment? 8. Will the project have a positive impact on the role and participation of women? Take #3 - are these people able to solve this problem themselves? Has anybody asked them? Don't you think they might have ways of making things waterproof - which is not that far from airtight, for these purposes? We left our traditional Hakka hats behind in Hong Kong when we came here to Japan, and we much regret it: sort of excellent head-umbrellas, leaving both hands free, after a thousand years or so of fiddling with the design they're perfect, beyond improvement. Woven from thin strips of bamboo bark over paper and varnished - or more likely treated with tung oil than varnish, and there's bound to be a local equivalent for tung oil. No leaks. You could make any shape of container like this - not structurally strong enough for liquids, but might be fine for gases, with a bit oif adaptation, depending on the pressure. Okay, it won't stretch, but oiled animal skins might, to an extent - but does it have to stretch? This is just off the top of my head, but I get the idea you also feel there ought to be some such solution. >Pardon me if I sound stupid as an urban Singaporean trying to think through >all the rural problems to solve to get a product which is idiot proof. I think you're doing rather well! >The >beneficiaries have tribal habits which will take some time to climb up the >technology ladder to be savvy like you and me in using modern applicators. You're focusing on the right aspect, IMO, Eong - what's possible isn't as important as what people will do and what they won't do, no matter how "dumb" their reasons may seem (maybe they are dumb reasons, or maybe they turn out to be not dumb at all when you see a few more pieces of the puzzle that you didn't perceive before). As a general principle, I believe it's very important that they not be encouraged to abandon their tribal customs in favour of modern ways, or maybe even actively discouraged from doing so: "new" technology (that is, new to them) ought to be fitted in to the context of the traditional ways without causing disruption, otherwise "progress" fails to deliver its promise, or worse. Best wishes Keith > >Regards..........EONG > > >___________________________________________________________________________ _ >_____________________________ > >-----Original Message----- >From: Robert Mills [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: 23 June 2003 11:48 >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: RE: [biofuel] > >Storage of the biogas on a temporary basis, a day or two, can be >accomplished as eaisly as using a big rubber or similar material bladder or >similar type of expandable device which will also control the gas pressures >more uniformly. An expandable device made of stronger materials and not >exposed to UV rays will probably last for 50 years or more. > >Large metal drums, 10,000 gallon and bigger, with one placed over the top of >another and sealed in the middle with a big o-ring are a common site in the >area of Sacramento, Ca. Their primary usage is to buffer the amount of gas >flowing in the line next to them and also smooth out the pressure >differences. > >Bob > >ONG San Guan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Hi, > >Interestingly enough on the Highlands of Yunnan Province of China, human and >animal waste are dumped together to produce biogas intentionally. This gas >is then piped into kitchen stove for preparing the three mails. This is the >substitute to having to chop off branches and trees for fire wood, a very >traditional method which is more akin to the tribal instinct. > >The next stage is to find a storage alternative rather than direct piping of >the gas which can be a mis-match; high pressure time when more methane gas >is generated and the household is not using it and vice versa. How do you >extract the methane gas and store the compressed air into container in a >rural environment in a cost effective manner? > > >Regards..........EONG > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: 23 June 2003 01:04 >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > ><snip> > > >As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this > >list? ), > >Excrement happens Greg, in more ways than one, especially here where >biogas is very much on-topic (and a very welcome topic too). > > > which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a > >Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be > >cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a > >usable form for farming, > >... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's "rich" in >N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact >it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life >(including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web. > >Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily >either one or the other. > > >and BioGas would be available for use as well. > > > >Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the > >air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn > >( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there > >reformed into Methanol which could power your car. > >And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current >thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which >more later. > >Best > >Keith > > > >Greg H. > ><snip> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! 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