MM,
Please At 02:14 PM 6/30/2003 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:04:54 +0200, you wrote: > > > > >MM, > > > >The numbers are not wacky, but they are the best I could find. Most other > >numbers show that it take more electricity than you get out. > >First: *All* such conversions, from electricity to any sort of liquid or >gaseous >substance containing the energy (such as through the potential for combusion), >will take more energy in than is ultimately stored. There is no known (within >conventional definitions) process for perfectly efficient storage of energy. Read what I said and you will find that I also say that hydrogen is a conversion and storage solution. I have to check and maybe rewrite to make this absolutely clear. It is no point to argue about something that we seems to 100% agree on. The problem is that this is not how it is sold to the public, take anyone on the street and you will find that they believe that it is an energy solution that will save the world. >So: what's the big deal? You have x amount of electrical energy, and you >end up >with .8(x) (or whatever) of that energy stored in the form of Hydrogen >ready for >combustion, losing about .2(x) in this example. You gain the convenience of >being able to wait for when you want to use the hydrogen, being able to >transport it and trade it, and in a device where electricity may be less >convenient. You may lose Hydrogen atoms or energy over that time (such as if >the H2 is cooled for storage as liquid H2 in a BMW 740 iL and then over >time it >may start to build up pressure and need to be bled off a little) > >Second: Your figures are in power instead of energy. You have quoted kW >instead >of kWh. I have done a mathematically correct simplification. The time factor can and should be excluded, if it is the same. You will have a hard time with me, if you argue this. >So, you're saying in effect that when you use electricity to make >hydrogen, that you get more power out than you put in, and then you seem to be >saying you meant energy and not power. Both, it is equal. >In either case, I don't see the logic. >I think we should be talking energy, not power, and whether we're discussing >energy or power, both (I'm pretty sure) must obey some sort of conservation >principles, whereby you will inevitably get out less than you put in, with the >remainder as loss (waste). I am not as sure about Power as about Energy. Again > >I am not saying that Hydrogen as such is a scam and that we could > >not find it viable in the future. What I say is that it is at the moment > used > >as a diversion from more viable and "ready for use" alternatives. It is > >also used to give politicians and the public a false sense of security. > >In that sense it is a scam and a very dangerous one. > > > >In itself it is a very dangerous strategy to delay actions on viable > >alternatives, in favor of possible unproven technologies. I have joked > >about my Presidential energy plan, but you only have to do quite > >simple calculations on it and you will be amazed. > >We're all upset at this use of H2 as a diversionary tactic, but I think we >should be accurate and say that we support some effort to evaluate and use >H2 as >one of several possible helpful energy technologies, but that we do not >support >use of H2 as an issue to obfuscate and prevent efforts in other alternatives. As I said, I subscribe to that and I see how I can get this clearer into the text. Hakan ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Save up to $400 on all notebooks. Get the notebook you want with all the features at a price you love. Price after rebates and savings http://us.click.yahoo.com/gx2HjB/wwSGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
