Hallo Quinn, Monday, 01 September, 2003, 21:23:14, you wrote:
Q> Greg, Q> You're kidding right?? Q> You fail to see how someone couldn't go out and drop $7000 on a vehicle if Q> they wanted to? In my 40+ years I have never spent more than $3500 on a Q> vehicle-- and only because that was all I could ever afford. While that Q> $7000 may be 'cheap' compared to new car prices, think of all the people all Q> over the country who ride busses. You don't think they all prefer to ride Q> the bus, do you? (And certainly they aren't all environmentalists or you Q> wouldn't see them tossing their Wendy's wrappers on the grass at the bus Q> stop as they board.) I know what you mean here as I'm a disabled vet on a fixed income. The most I ever paid was $900 and I thought that was pushing it. Q> We should try to remember here that we are a privileged few with ready Q> access to computers, to the Internet, and with, it seems, a great deal of Q> education between us and a great amount of personal time for discourse. It Q> also seems that there are quite a few with disposable income, which they are Q> admirably using towards greener goals. Q> While there are a lot of arrogant conspicuous consumers in this country (as Q> has been noted) there are also vast scores of people for whom any portion of Q> the above luxuries are inaccessible. Not everyone in this country can even Q> afford to go out and spend the time and money to make a $1500-$3000 Q> biodiesel setup, with the necessary time hunting for scrap goods, and Q> tinkering and brazing. And not everyone even has a backyard to do it in. Q> If we are going to open people's eyes to alternative methods --even Q> alternative methods that will be cheaper for them in the long run, such as Q> the discussion on the solar arrays-- we should try to do it without being Q> arrogant ourselves. Q> Quinn I would not be too hard on Quinn (not that you were). I guess I would not be too hard on anyone. There are a lot of people out there who are unaware of the economic plight of many of the folks in this country. We have a lot of poor here. Not so much abject poor as I have seen overseas, but poor nonetheless. They are not whining either. Too busy trying to live. The ones who whine are the ones with money. I have a friend in Germany who absolutely hates Americans with the exception of me and a couple of others he knows. He hates our food and our attitude and our way of living. Lived here a few years and then went back home. While he was here he drove a semi truck and back home while talking with some friends he surprised himself by being in the position of defending the low gas prices here. His reasoning was that the sheer size of the country combined with the relative emptiness outside population areas dictates a need for inexpensive petroleum as mass transit is all but impossible outside the large urban areas. I live out here in the boonies near a little one horse farm town. The nearest real job center is a half an hour drive away and that job market is mostly open for McJobs anyhow. Using my son as an example of what we face. His round trip to work was 70 miles per day and the best job which he could find actually was working part time for the McDonalds. There is absolutely no dependable mass transit around here unless you cound the "dial-a-ride" which comes into town twice a day and unless you can find a really good paying job with hours from 11am to 1.30pm you are s.o.l. (out of luck). We are 5 people living in this house of whom 4 drive and 3 have jobs. My daughter works from midnight until 8am 25 minutes north of our place. My wife, up at 4am, drives school bus and makes a 34 mile round trip twice a day. My son, who found a halfway decent job now, is up at 5.30am and also has a 34 mile drive to the shop but then also has to drive to the job site which may be as far as 70 miles from the shop on any given day. None of these jobs pays well but they do provide a tolerable living since we are all living together, but it requires the use of 3 vehicles. Again, no mass transit is possible out here on the land. There are a lot of folks falling through the cracks outside the urban centers and the urban centers are few and far between. The last time I was in Europe I had the thought that Germany was one big urban center. I never drove for 20 minutes without hitting a town. In the matter of a few short hours one can travel north to south or east to west and hit the border of another country there. Here in Michigan it takes 13 hours to drive from where I am which is 3.5 miles north of Ohio to hit the town of Rockland in the Upper Peninsula and you still have to go some to hit Lake Superior or to go as far north as possible. It takes more than 24 hours to drive from Texarkana, Texas to El Paso, Texas. "The sun has riz and the sun has set and here we is in Texas yet." For some reason we generally seem to view each other through our own set of circumstances. We are all ignorant in our own way and our situations are not always the same. Greg thinks that $7,000 is not only a reasonable but inexpensive amount to pay for a vehicle while Quinn halves that. I figure I got my money's worth given what I was buying for $900 but I know LOTS of people who cannot afford a vehicle at all or could afford a vehicle but not insurance. Folks in urban areas or heavily populated smaller countries don't see why everyone doesn't go to mass transit and bicycles and people living out where I live wonder why others piss and moan about all the cars there are since "everyone" knows that without a car you cannot work. This may seem unrelated but it is how I think. I define religion as that which draws people together and creed as that which pushes people apart. What most people call religion is really creed. What seems to me to be going on, not only on this list but in life in general, is that we are wasting our time on creed while the religion slips away. We all seem to want to head to the same place but are worried about the route each other is taking. We don't seem to realize that the same suit of clothes does not fit everyone. What works in Sweden may not work in Indonesia or Canada or the US. What works in New York city won't work in Morenci, Michigan and what works in Morenci won't work farther out in the county. Some but not all things must be present to work, but the variables which we encounter given the environment we are in makes all situations different with only some similarities. As we all seem to have similar desires when it comes to biodiesel and the environment, that is to say we all seem to want to live in an environmentally friendly and responsible manner and wish everyone to adopt our way of thinking it seems to me that we ought to focus on the areas on which we agree and then work together to implement our goals while recognizing the different situations others may be in and adjusting our methods to fit the circumstances rather than attempting to impose one size on all. We really need to recognize that the enemy is government and those who have and control the wealth. We need to recognize that this is an international phenomenon and is not restricted to the United States or to developed nations. Every country, no matter how underdeveloped and poor has a government and a monied class and they work hand-in-hand with each other and with the governments and monied classes of all the other countries of the world. For government and the wealthy it is all about "the bottom line." It is profit before people. If the goal is to change regimes or elect "liberal" or "progressive" people or parties then we may as well go piss up a rope because the effect will be the same. Left, right or center we are still choosing between Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum. Government and money are inextricably entwined and in the end all the hogs still feed from the same trough. The more deeply we become involved in politics and the mechanics of political change the further we stray from the goal. Our energy and attention is diverted as is our action. We get sucked into their game and play by their rules all the while thinking we are doing something worthwhile and lasting. Our goal, final destination, reason we are all here on this list is, as I see it, that we want a world which is clean, wholesome, sustainable and will remain so for us and our children and so on. We want clean air, clean water, a balanced system. And this brings me back to religion and creed. Creed requires blind adherence to an imposed set of propositions which may or may not be true and is controlled by those few holding power over the many and that it be defended as the only true and right belief system against all comers. Creed is static and dead, hostile and confrontational. Religion requires that the individual come to know all he is capable of knowing and that he not only share what he has with others but learn from those with greater wisdom. Religion require finding points of agreement and building from there. Religion requires that we love one another but further, that we display that love by social service and action as we are able. Personal example and personal interaction. Alive and growing and learning. It seems to me that that is not a bad paradigm to follow no matter what we are trying to do. When people see what you are and what you do and the benefits which are resultant they will want those good benefits and will slowly change. Attitudes and behavior will and does change due to personal example. People are teachable but they have to have a reason to want to learn. Self interest works as a beginning but that changes with time as people begin to feel part of a larger community, family. Co-operation sets in, perhaps initially for personal benefit but eventually because it is found to work. For the record. I don't believe either of you folks said anything "wrong". I just find it interesting about the misconceptions and misunderstandings which occur among like minded people because of the assumptions one makes, the understandable ignorance of anothers circumstances and the nearly unfailing habit we have of not looking at something with anothers point of view but from our own either/or standpoint. Again, sorry to be so windy. Now and then I just get a wild hair. Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. Mitglied-Team AMIGA ICQ: 22211253-Gustli ******** The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters" ******** Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen, da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. 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