Gustl,
I agree with you for the most part, but must point out that you've
misinterpreted me. I did not mean to suggest that $3500 was "reasonable"
for a vehicle. I did not put any price on what a car should or could cost;
all I said was that that was the most I had ever paid, or could afford to
pay.
Further, I never suggested that I was 'right' regarding anything; only -as
you repeated- that we should each try and be aware of another's
circumstances. My point was exactly the same as yours only shorter and with
the exception of wanting to do away with any form of government.
Thank you for reiterating.
Quinn
----- Original Message -----
From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender
To: Quinn
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [biofuel] Gas Prices Causing Alarm
Hallo Quinn,
Monday, 01 September, 2003, 21:23:14, you wrote:
Q> Greg,
Q> You're kidding right??
Q> You fail to see how someone couldn't go out and drop $7000 on a vehicle
if
Q> they wanted to? In my 40+ years I have never spent more than $3500 on
a
Q> vehicle-- and only because that was all I could ever afford. While
that
Q> $7000 may be 'cheap' compared to new car prices, think of all the
people all
Q> over the country who ride busses. You don't think they all prefer to
ride
Q> the bus, do you? (And certainly they aren't all environmentalists or
you
Q> wouldn't see them tossing their Wendy's wrappers on the grass at the
bus
Q> stop as they board.)
I know what you mean here as I'm a disabled vet on a fixed income.
The most I ever paid was $900 and I thought that was pushing it.
Q> We should try to remember here that we are a privileged few with ready
Q> access to computers, to the Internet, and with, it seems, a great deal
of
Q> education between us and a great amount of personal time for discourse.
It
Q> also seems that there are quite a few with disposable income, which
they are
Q> admirably using towards greener goals.
Q> While there are a lot of arrogant conspicuous consumers in this country
(as
Q> has been noted) there are also vast scores of people for whom any
portion of
Q> the above luxuries are inaccessible. Not everyone in this country can
even
Q> afford to go out and spend the time and money to make a $1500-$3000
Q> biodiesel setup, with the necessary time hunting for scrap goods, and
Q> tinkering and brazing. And not everyone even has a backyard to do it
in.
Q> If we are going to open people's eyes to alternative methods --even
Q> alternative methods that will be cheaper for them in the long run, such
as
Q> the discussion on the solar arrays-- we should try to do it without
being
Q> arrogant ourselves.
Q> Quinn
I would not be too hard on Quinn (not that you were). I guess I would
not be too hard on anyone. There are a lot of people out there who are
unaware of the economic plight of many of the folks in this country.
We have a lot of poor here. Not so much abject poor as I have seen
overseas, but poor nonetheless. They are not whining either. Too busy
trying to live. The ones who whine are the ones with money.
I have a friend in Germany who absolutely hates Americans with the
exception of me and a couple of others he knows. He hates our food
and our attitude and our way of living. Lived here a few years and
then went back home. While he was here he drove a semi truck and back
home while talking with some friends he surprised himself by being in
the position of defending the low gas prices here. His reasoning was
that the sheer size of the country combined with the relative
emptiness outside population areas dictates a need for inexpensive
petroleum as mass transit is all but impossible outside the large
urban areas.
I live out here in the boonies near a little one horse farm town. The
nearest real job center is a half an hour drive away and that job
market is mostly open for McJobs anyhow. Using my son as an example
of what we face. His round trip to work was 70 miles per day and the
best job which he could find actually was working part time for the
McDonalds. There is absolutely no dependable mass transit around here
unless you cound the "dial-a-ride" which comes into town twice a day
and unless you can find a really good paying job with hours from 11am
to 1.30pm you are s.o.l. (out of luck).
We are 5 people living in this house of whom 4 drive and 3 have jobs.
My daughter works from midnight until 8am 25 minutes north of our
place. My wife, up at 4am, drives school bus and makes a 34 mile round
trip twice a day. My son, who found a halfway decent job now, is up at
5.30am and also has a 34 mile drive to the shop but then also has to
drive to the job site which may be as far as 70 miles from the shop on
any given day. None of these jobs pays well but they do provide a
tolerable living since we are all living together, but it requires the
use of 3 vehicles. Again, no mass transit is possible out here on the
land.
There are a lot of folks falling through the cracks outside the urban
centers and the urban centers are few and far between. The last time
I was in Europe I had the thought that Germany was one big urban
center. I never drove for 20 minutes without hitting a town. In the
matter of a few short hours one can travel north to south or east to
west and hit the border of another country there. Here in Michigan it
takes 13 hours to drive from where I am which is 3.5 miles north of
Ohio to hit the town of Rockland in the Upper Peninsula and you still
have to go some to hit Lake Superior or to go as far north as
possible. It takes more than 24 hours to drive from Texarkana, Texas
to El Paso, Texas. "The sun has riz and the sun has set and here we
is in Texas yet."
For some reason we generally seem to view each other through our own
set of circumstances. We are all ignorant in our own way and our
situations are not always the same. Greg thinks that $7,000 is not
only a reasonable but inexpensive amount to pay for a vehicle while
Quinn halves that. I figure I got my money's worth given what I was
buying for $900 but I know LOTS of people who cannot afford a vehicle
at all or could afford a vehicle but not insurance. Folks in urban
areas or heavily populated smaller countries don't see why everyone
doesn't go to mass transit and bicycles and people living out where I
live wonder why others piss and moan about all the cars there are
since "everyone" knows that without a car you cannot work.
This may seem unrelated but it is how I think. I define religion as
that which draws people together and creed as that which pushes people
apart. What most people call religion is really creed. What seems to
me to be going on, not only on this list but in life in general, is
that we are wasting our time on creed while the religion slips away.
We all seem to want to head to the same place but are worried about
the route each other is taking. We don't seem to realize that the
same suit of clothes does not fit everyone.
What works in Sweden may not work in Indonesia or Canada or the US.
What works in New York city won't work in Morenci, Michigan and what
works in Morenci won't work farther out in the county. Some but not
all things must be present to work, but the variables which we
encounter given the environment we are in makes all situations
different with only some similarities.
As we all seem to have similar desires when it comes to biodiesel and
the environment, that is to say we all seem to want to live in an
environmentally friendly and responsible manner and wish everyone to
adopt our way of thinking it seems to me that we ought to focus on the
areas on which we agree and then work together to implement our goals
while recognizing the different situations others may be in and
adjusting our methods to fit the circumstances rather than attempting
to impose one size on all.
We really need to recognize that the enemy is government and those who
have and control the wealth. We need to recognize that this is an
international phenomenon and is not restricted to the United States or
to developed nations. Every country, no matter how underdeveloped and
poor has a government and a monied class and they work hand-in-hand
with each other and with the governments and monied classes of all the
other countries of the world. For government and the wealthy it is
all about "the bottom line." It is profit before people.
If the goal is to change regimes or elect "liberal" or "progressive"
people or parties then we may as well go piss up a rope because the
effect will be the same. Left, right or center we are still choosing
between Tweedle-dee and Tweedle-dum. Government and money are
inextricably entwined and in the end all the hogs still feed from the
same trough. The more deeply we become involved in politics and the
mechanics of political change the further we stray from the goal. Our
energy and attention is diverted as is our action. We get sucked into
their game and play by their rules all the while thinking we are doing
something worthwhile and lasting.
Our goal, final destination, reason we are all here on this list is,
as I see it, that we want a world which is clean, wholesome,
sustainable and will remain so for us and our children and so on. We
want clean air, clean water, a balanced system. And this brings me
back to religion and creed. Creed requires blind adherence to an
imposed set of propositions which may or may not be true and is
controlled by those few holding power over the many and that it be
defended as the only true and right belief system against all comers.
Creed is static and dead, hostile and confrontational. Religion
requires that the individual come to know all he is capable of knowing
and that he not only share what he has with others but learn from
those with greater wisdom. Religion require finding points of
agreement and building from there. Religion requires that we love one
another but further, that we display that love by social service and
action as we are able. Personal example and personal interaction.
Alive and growing and learning.
It seems to me that that is not a bad paradigm to follow no matter
what we are trying to do. When people see what you are and what you
do and the benefits which are resultant they will want those good
benefits and will slowly change. Attitudes and behavior will and does
change due to personal example. People are teachable but they have to
have a reason to want to learn. Self interest works as a beginning
but that changes with time as people begin to feel part of a larger
community, family. Co-operation sets in, perhaps initially for
personal benefit but eventually because it is found to work.
For the record. I don't believe either of you folks said anything
"wrong". I just find it interesting about the misconceptions and
misunderstandings which occur among like minded people because of the
assumptions one makes, the understandable ignorance of anothers
circumstances and the nearly unfailing habit we have of not looking at
something with anothers point of view but from our own either/or
standpoint.
Again, sorry to be so windy. Now and then I just get a wild hair.
Happy Happy,
Gustl
--
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.
Mitglied-Team AMIGA
ICQ: 22211253-Gustli
********
The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope,
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones,
without signposts.
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"
********
Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Stra§e liegen,
da§ sie gerade deshalb von der gewšhnlichen Welt nicht
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.
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