To Keith, Thanks a lot Keith, I will do some experiments and keep you informed if you whish. Why is gold or platinum used, while it also works with carbon ? In this process chlorine is produced. Isn't chlorine poison ?
I tend to stick a bit to my first question : How can I procuce H2 out of water, without the electrodes solube ? I can understand that metal electrodes solube in chlorine or NaOH, but electrodes also solube because of giving away electrones. I have tried it with stainless steel electrodes, and they meld away like nothing. Doesn't that happen with carbon ? Why (not) ? Keith, I am very much impressed by the amount of energy ( not BD, but human energy ) you put into this item. Sooner or later the world will be greatfull to you. Please keep going !! ( How do you know about "Dag Pieter" ? ). Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands The information contained in this message (including attachments) is confidential, and is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you have received this message in error please delete it and notify the originator immediately. The unauthorized use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is strictly forbidden. We will not be liable for direct, special, indirect or consequential damages arising from alteration of the contents of this message by a third party or in case of electronic communications as a result of any virus being passed on. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2003 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy > >Hi all, > >I would like to try some experiments on hydrogen. > >First : What is the best way to make it out of water ? What electrodes > >should I use, so they don't go in solution ? > >What electrolite should I use ? > >Is there a link where I can find some information for beginners on this item > >? > > > >By the way : I have been driving over 100.000 km on BD now, without any > >problems at all. Just great! > > > >Met vriendelijke groeten, > >Pieter Koole > >Netherlands > > Dag Pieter > > "Caveman Chemistry" previously had a nice description and slide show > of producing Chlorine, Hydrogen, and Lye from table salt, using PET > bottles, flashlight batteries, glue and stuff. "Wire electrodes would > be corroded by the lye and chlorine. We could use gold or platinum > wire, but the poor man's inert electrode is carbon. The easiest place > to get carbon electrodes is from a flashlight battery. It is > imperative that you use ordinary flashlight batteries, not alkaline > batteries, since alkaline batteries put the zinc in the center and > the carbon on the outside. Ordinary flashlight batteries have a > carbon rod down the middle and a zinc can on the outside." > > Now that site has changed, and I can't find this section there anymore. > http://cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/index.html > Caveman Chemistry > > Only these: > http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali2.html > > http://www.cavemanchemistry.com/cavebook/chchloralkali.html > > Here's the previous text though, below, without the slide show, hope > it makes sense. > > regards > > Keith > > > > Here are the supplies we need: A 2-liter soft drink bottle, 2 smaller > soft drink bottles (about 500 mL each), 2 ordinary size D flashlight > batteries, and some waterproof glue which will stick to PET plastic. > > Wire electrodes would be corroded by the lye and chlorine. We could > use gold or platinum wire, but the poor man's inert electrode is > carbon. The easiest place to get carbon electrodes is from a > flashlight battery. It is imperative that you use ordinary flashlight > batteries, not alkaline batteries, since alkaline batteries put the > zinc in the center and the carbon on the outside. Ordinary flashlight > batteries have a carbon rod down the middle and a zinc can on the > outside. > > You should wear glasses and gloves for this part. Peel away the paper > wrapper to expose the zinc can underneath. > > Use pliers to peel away the zinc can, exposing the electrolyte paste > within. Loosen up this paste until the carbon rod is free and then > remove the carbon rod with pliers. > > The electrolyte paste is not all that harmful, but it can be messy. > Do not eat this paste, rub it all over your body, feed it to stray > animals, rub it in your eyes, or any of the 1,268 other stupid things > that could be done with it. Just throw it in the trash and wash your > hands after handling it. > > Just to cover all the bases, the same is not true for alkaline > batteries. Their electrolyte paste is alkaline and it is caustic. You > should definitely wash your hands soon after contact with this paste. > But you won't get that contact in this project, since alkaline cells > don't have carbon rods. > > You need two carbon rods. Here they are, inert and electrically conductive. > > You will cut the top off the 2 liter bottle and the bottoms off the > two smaller bottles. The size of the smaller bottles doesn't matter > as long as they fit inside the 2 liter bottle. > > Take a pocket knife and cut two holes in the bottom of the 2 liter > bottle. The holes should be just big enough to insert the carbon > rods. The rods are about as big in diameter as a pencil, so if you > start with a small hole, you can use a pencil to open up a smooth, > round hole of the right size. Then insert the carbon rods, making a > tight fit with the bottle. > > You now need some kind of glue to seal the rods in place. I have used > Plumbers Goop, which makes an excellent seal. Here I am using an > epoxy that is specifically for plastic. The important consideration > is that the glue must make a good waterproof seal with the PET > plastic from which the bottle is made. > > Once the carbon rods are sealed, push the two small plastic bottles > into the large one. One carbon rod should protrude into each of the > two small bottles. Take the caps off the small bottles and fill the > large bottle to the brim with saturated salt water. Just keep adding > salt until no more will dissolve. Screw the caps onto the small > bottles and then pour water out of the large one until it is about > half full. Amazingly, the small bottles will stay full of water. > > I am powering the cell with 4 D cells in series (6 Volts total). The > negative end goes to one carbon rod (the cathode) and the positive > end goes to the other carbon rod (the anode). Bubbles will start to > collect on the carbon rods and soon gas will collect at the top of > each bottle. Hydrogen will be produced at the cathode and chlorine > will be produced at the anode. The water will start out pH neutral > but will become more and more alkaline as sodium hydroxide is > produced. > > Here is a close-up of the cathode with hydrogen bubbling up from it. > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bruce Crowder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com> > >Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2003 7:57 PM > >Subject: [biofuel] Re: Hydrogen Economy > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm an engineer at a company that designs fuel reformers to convert > > > hydrocarbons into hydrogen, mostly for fuel cell applications but > > > also for other applications. I'm not necessarily advocating this as > > > a solution to our dependence on fossil fuels, but there are a couple > > > factors that many people fail to consider when discussing these > > > options. First, fuel cell systems that run on hydrogen are much > > > more efficient than internal combustion engines. For example, a > > > fuel cell car that runs on hydrogen reformed from gasoline will get > > > about 50% more miles per gallon than a typical automobile. Same > > > fuel goes into the tank but less is used for the same amount of > > > work. Secondly, the current administration is having very little > > > impact on the development of this technology. The $1.2 billion that > > > Bush promised for fuel cell development is a tiny fraction of what > > > would be required to spur industry to refocus efforts towards a new > > > technology. In the end, the technology that makes the most economic > > > sense and earns the highest level of confidence from the public will > > > win. > > > > > > I've got my money on biodiesel as the fuel of the future. > > > > > > -Bruce > > > > > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > I would agree with you, if it was higher R/P values for natural > > > gas. With the > > > > current 7 years for US, the demands of independence of import > > > becomes an > > > > even a more impossible dream. I do not have to describe the > > > current US > > > > situation on NG again. Hydrogen from NG achieve nothing and the > > > best > > > > bet is coal/nuclear at the end. It is already feverish activities > > > in US to > > > > build > > > > a lot more nuclear power stations. > > > > > > > > Hydrogen production at home? That will make Osama bin Laden happy. > > > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > > At 06:27 PM 9/20/2003, you wrote: > > > > > >Initially Hydrogen will come from US coal reserves and then > > > > > >central production with huge Nuclear Power Stations. To > > > > > >diversify from this, to consumer level is at best a naive dream > > > > > >and probably a deliberate attempt of scam. > > > > > > > > > >To some extent I think it will also come from natural gas > > > reformed at > > > > >the level of the home (and let us remember that H2 is presently > > > > >usually made from Natural Gas... about 90% I think). And, as Ken > > > > >points out, from simple electrolysis using electricity delivered > > > to > > > > >the home. > > > > > > > > > >If they must have their H2 economy, I'd like to see H2 made from > > > other > > > > >sources, such as methane made from biomass, if they want to > > > establish > > > > >a sustainable economy of H2, but what do I know. > > > > > > > > > > >To hook up your car for consumer production of one of the > > > > > >most difficult gases to handle, cannot be a realistic dream. > > > > > >Osama bin Laden would be happy to know that the Americans > > > > > >will blow up themselves at the end. > > > > > > > > > > > >Maybe they are now building arguments for Bush to take the > > > > > >taxpayers money and pay for the upgrade of the grid. > > > > > > > > > > > >Hakan > > > > > > > > > > > >At 08:42 AM 9/20/2003, you wrote: > > > > > >>Hi > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Here's my two cents worth on the hydrogen economy. > > > > > >>Electrolysis of water is what will happen and the car > > > > > >>companies are promoting plugging into your home at > > > > > >>night to charge up for the morning commute. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>How much extra capacity will power companies need to > > > > > >>install to charge up all these hydrogen cars? Let's > > > > > >>say your car averages 20-horsepower (~15kW) for an > > > > > >>hour a day = 54MJoules/day. I read somewhere that an > > > > > >>average house uses 0.75kW and if this means 24 hours > > > > > >>per day, 65MJoules/day. It would interesting if > > > > > >>anyone has an "average" electric bill for comparison. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>A lot of energy will be needed to charge up all those > > > > > >>millions of hydrogen cars and where will it come from? > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Best regards, > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Biofuels list archives: > >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! 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