Gustl, As for me...I would rather spend my time building bridges rather than fences *What kind of bridge do you in intend to build with this rhetoric?
*Naziism is the mirror image of Judaism as is the SS of Zionism. *Not all Jews are Zionists, were all Germans Nazis? *Israel has "eretz Israel-greater Israel". *Eretz Yisrael is simply Hebrew for the Land Of Israel. there are no political or idealogical tags associated with this name. *Israel occupies an area 10 times greater that it was at its largest in biblical times. *Where did you get this fact? To what point in Bilical history are you referring? *Israel has Gaza and the West Bank of the Jordan. *If Gaza and The West Bank are concentration camps, how is it that the popoulation has grown so much in the past 36 years. The restrictive atmosphere of these places is mostly imposed by other Arab nations and self imposed by Arafat as a way gaining personal wealth and some legititmacy. I must concede that more recently it is imposed by Israel as a self defense measure. *Israel claims the divine right to occupy others land because this land had been given to them by God but they also have failed to produce the divine deed. *Israel claims the right defend itself because no one else will directly defend her (here's where oil plays in). Yes some Jews who may or may not be Israeli do claim a divine right but they are a minority on the Israeli scene, security is Israel's major concern. *If Israelis are attacked there are reprisals *True some of the time, other times coincidental planned military activities occured at about the same time as as reprisals. "Turn the other cheek" is not the Jewish way. *The Israelis are neither better nor worse than the Nazis. *Nazis killed with pleasure out of sense of nationalism, also as part of a plan to create a master race. Many people did not make it through this filter. Iraeli's for the most part kill with regret, you don't see dancing in the streets of Tel Aviv when an attack is successful. Golda Meir once said "She could forgive the Arabs for killing her children, but not for turning her children into killers" Yes the "Palistinean" situation is sad but their corrupt leadership is responsible for most of their problems,they have never failed to miss an opportunity. ** *But if you take one person from one side and another from another side and sit them in the kitchen over some food and just get talking you generally find, after the initial horse manure has been shoveled off, that they want the same things..... *I agree, it's only when they want the same exact thing that you have serious problems. *Sacred cows and magic words being thrown by the wayside. Love and reason will have their way in the end. *Sacred cows and magic words help some people focus on love. Reason is another thing. *Now, if you want to go on about forgeries how about this? The court in the Hague has declared that all four sections of the Anne Frank diary have been written by the same person. A lot of folks think that this proves that Anne Frank wrote it. The small problem is that the fourth section was written in ball point pen and that was not introduced to the general public until about 1953. Now what is this going to prove aside from the fact that that poor child didn't write it? The book has been used for decades to attack the Germans. Is it now going to be used to attack the Jews? To what end? None of this makes us better people. Perhaps it will teach us that the truth will eventually come out. * If it is a fraud I would like to know it. Truth is important. I would like to know where this information can be found. I don't know about it being used to attack the Germans, it was never used in that context in my experience but if you say so, I'll accept that as fact. *I ask you friends, do we have time for this kind of thing? Do our childrens children?............. *I've made the time to fight distortions of the truth so my children might not have to face hurtful hate filled lies and mistruthes (sp?). As far as the flowers are concerned, I couldn't see putting flowers grown in Auschwitz, or the Killing Fields of Cambodia,or Rhuwanda, or anywhere that innocents have been slaughtered on my table. Yes, we need to love each other, we also need to live with each other. Gustl good luck trying it your way. -Arthur ** ** * * * Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: >Hallo MM, > >The problem we have here is twofold. First, just as the phrase >"national security" hides a lot of sins (so to speak), the phrase >"anti-semite" intimidates and silences a lot of tongues and pens. This >is why "there is *no comment* from the all-of-a-sudden too-busy >gallery when he brings forth a statement such as the above." It is all >too common for anyone, particularly someone with a name such as mine, >who voices any criticism of Israel regardless of whether the criticism >is deserved or not to be smeared and marginalized as an anti-semite, >bigot, nazi, whatever. If a Jew happens to be the one doing the >criticism then they are promptly labelled a "self-hating Jew". This >happens not only even, but particularly if the criticism is deserved. >People have lost their livlihoods by saying the wrong thing even if >the wrong thing happened to be true. > >Second, the wrong questions are being asked and debated. People have >been debating whether this document is a "forgery" or not. That is, >in this particular case, irrelevant. What should be questioned is the >content of the thing. Is what is being spelled out in the document >actually coming to pass and if not then it can be ignored but if these >things are actually transpiring then it behooves us to discover who is >doing these things. The Protocols claim it is the "Jews" doing this. >Fine. Then that should be demonstrable. If it is not then the people >responsible for these acts should be traced down, documented and >exposed for what they are. As Gandalf said, "All that is gold does >not glitter, not all those that wander are lost." > >As for me...I would rather spend my time building bridges rather than >fences. I do not like being wrong and appreciate it when my mistakes >are pointed out to me that I may bring myself in line with what is >right. I appreciate candor and frankness and plain speech. I believe >if you are innocent don't plead guilty and if you are guilty stand up >and take your punishment. I also believe in self >discipline/restraint/responsibility and reason. My greatest belief is >in the power of loving kindness and loving service to ones fellows. >Now for the plain speech. > >Naziism is the mirror image of Judaism as is the SS of Zionism. On >the one hand we have the master race and on the other the chosen >people of God. Germany had "Gro§deutschland-greater Germany" and >Israel has "eretz Israel-greater Israel". Germany occupied a good >portion of Europe and Israel occupies an area 10 times greater that it >was at its largest in biblical times. Germany had its concentration >camps and Israel has Gaza and the West Bank of the Jordan. Germany >claimed to have a divine right as the master race to occupy other >countries for Lebensraum (living room) but failed to provide the >divine deed. Israel claims the divine right to occupy others land >because this land had been given to them by God but they also have >failed to produce the divine deed. If Germans were attacked there >were reprisals. If Israelis are attacked there are reprisals. The >list of mirrored traits goes on and on. The Israelis are neither >better nor worse than the Nazis. Numbers and scope make no >difference. If it did then the Chinese who slaughtered 33.5 million >would win making the Nazis and Israelis both look like pikers. Human >life is human life and we cannot afford to say, "Well, we only killed >x number and the other side killed xxxx number." Doesn't work that >way. Evil is evil. Perhaps they only killed x instead of xxxx >because they didn't get the chance. They still did these evil things. > >The problem here is that when you get large bunches of folks together >they often wind up getting stupid. They tend to concentrate on what >their differences are rather than their similarities. They forget >that their "enemies" are more than likely just the same as them and in >the end just people. "We" need things but "they" are just greedy. Up >go the fences and defenses. But if you take one person from one side >and another from another side and sit them in the kitchen over some >food and just get talking you generally find, after the initial horse >manure has been shoveled off, that they want the same things. They >want peace and happiness, decent food and housing and educations. >They don't want to control anyone or be controlled. They just want to >live and raise their families in peace. They want to be reasonable >human beings. It is when the herd instinct and greed come into play >that things get sticky. And we humans are just wierd enough to turn >on our own if we can't find an enemy on the outside. We are a curious >species. > >There is hope however. People working with each other. Minds and >hearts changing one at a time. Sacred cows and magic words being >thrown by the wayside. Love and reason will have their way in the >end. > >Now, if you want to go on about forgeries how about this? The court >in the Hague has declared that all four sections of the Anne Frank >diary have been written by the same person. A lot of folks think that >this proves that Anne Frank wrote it. The small problem is that the >fourth section was written in ball point pen and that was not >introduced to the general public until about 1953. Now what is this >going to prove aside from the fact that that poor child didn't write >it? The book has been used for decades to attack the Germans. Is it >now going to be used to attack the Jews? To what end? None of this >makes us better people. Perhaps it will teach us that the truth will >eventually come out. > >I ask you friends, do we have time for this kind of thing? Do our >childrens children? Is it not better to look to the good and to what >we have in common? Does it matter who wrote the Protocols or the >bible or Koran or anything else? Only whatever truth which is in any >of these documents is worth anything. The rest is for the compost >heap. When we see beautiful flowers growing in the manure in the >pasture do we take the flowers and put them in a vase on the kitchen >table or do we get our shovels and scoop up manure and all and drop >that down on the table? No matter who or what we are we need to live >in love and learn to transcend all limiting crap. We owe that to each >other, eh? > >Murdoch this was not something personal to you but general to the >list. I thought you had it right with your *no comment* comment. >Things like this have to be faced squarely and honestly and the >emotional baggage which normally accompanies topics such as this. > >And now my friends, sorry for the length (sort of). :o) > >Happy Happy, > >Gustl > >Wednesday, 02 June, 2004, 13:01:04, you wrote: > >m> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:49:39 +0900, you wrote: > > > >>>Hello Arthur >>> >>>You lose! >>> >>>I suppose it's no big surprise that a thread such as this should hit >>>Godwin's Law, but it sure didn't take you long. >>> >>> > >m> [...] > > > >>>Whether you agree with it or not, Luc provided some analysis and some >>>references and links, which you dismiss as "proven scams and hate >>>literature" and liken them to "Mein Kampf". It just doesn't work that >>>way here. We're all entitled to our opinions, and entitled to express >>>them too, but when you're attempting to discredit someone else's >>>view, which he's provided some substantiation for, it needs a little >>>more than just an opinion and a contemptuous slap-aside. So either >>>add some substance to it, or don't expect to be treated with any >>>respect. >>> >>> >>> > >m> I've read through a few of Luc's comments and found them worth some >m> consideration. However, I haven't read much, in part because of this, >m> from May 27: > > > >>>Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 16:31:28 -0000 >>> >>>A Clean Break - Strategy for Securing the Realm. Pay attention to >>>the signatories. >>>http://www.irmep.org/Policy_Briefs/3_27_2003_Clean_Break_or_Dirty_War >>>.html >>>There's still more to it than that, but lest I be labelled >>>a "conspiracy nut" it shall remain as such :), but then I don't >>>really care who labels me with what so here goes anyway: >>>In conjunction with the above "Clean Break" document written by the >>>main instigators of the Iraq invasion we pony it up to another much >>>maligned document whose authenticity was declared "a forgery" by a >>>Swiss court, but then that judgement was overturned as >>>unsubstantiated but it is only the original denigration that is >>>publicised for obvious propaganda value; the document of course >>>is "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" outlining a world >>>control strategy whom some have "theorised" was actually originally >>>written by none other than Myer Amschtel Rothschild when he was >>>setting up his world banking empire. >>>http://www.usa-the-republic.com/illuminati/zion.html is where to go >>>read it. It would seem odd that a "forgery" (normally a copy of an >>>original) would hold information that is now common fact in the >>>world we live in. A coincidence? Does the sun rise everyday by >>>chance? >>> >>> > >m> As I am not a scholar on this document, but was more offended, as I >m> said, by the manner in which the topic of the document was raised, I'd >m> like to ask if anyone here has any response to this "analysis" of >m> Luc's. If Luc is to be praised so mightily for raising topics that >m> take some analysis and effort and (arguably) courage in the face of >m> established arguments, then I wonder that there is *no comment* from >m> the all-of-a-sudden too-busy gallery when he brings forth a statement >m> such as the above. > >m> MM > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
