Jay,
> I've been wondering... has anyone tried an old box fan motor with a
> paint stirrer on the end instead of a drill? I thought the torque
> handling capabilities of the drill might be overkill, and something
> with lower torque strength might get the job done.
As long as you don't over amp ("smoke") the motor by attaching too large of
a prop/impeller/stirring-device to it. Such motors are notoriously low in
hp, anywhere from 1/8 to 1/2. Not much there to compensate for viscous
fluids. Remember, "box fan motors" are matched with appliances that stir
air.
Might want to make sure that the r's are in the 1,200 - 1,800 range, or at
least no higher.
Todd Swearingen
----- Original Message -----
From: "j_kimrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 11:13 AM
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
> I've been wondering... has anyone tried an old box fan motor with a
> paint stirrer on the end instead of a drill? I thought the torque
> handling capabilities of the drill might be overkill, and something
> with lower torque strength might get the job done.
>
> -= Jay =-
>
> --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "bioveging" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I have done this very thing with a 40 liter batch and washed it in
> a
> > poly drum (200liter) using a standard paint stirrer on the end of
> a
> > standard drill and got excellent fuel from it (it's all gone now
> > thanks to the Benz) :) Tonight I am going to acquire a Pony Pump
> and
> > once that gets set up I will let you know how it worked (or
> didn't).
> > The drill-pumps are not doing very well, they keep burning out. I
> > have one that draws water and is still operational but the two I
> was
> > using, one for wash and the other for transfer of BD through
> filters
> > crapped on me, so it's $ and Pony Pump time.
> > Stir mixing works well, but be very cautious of the methanol
> fumes.
> > Make it fumeless (closed) if possible. If not do it outside in a
> > cross wind. Washing with a paint mixer works very well and allows
> > for longer settling after washing than bubble or mist washing does
> > as well as it's other advantages.
> >
> > L.
> >
> > L.
> >
> > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "dermot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Thanks everybody for the replies.
> > > I mixed the methoxide with the wvo by gradually letting the pump
> > suck it from a carboy as the wvo was being pumped through the
> > processor.
> > > I'm fairly happy that there was good mixing because of the tests
> I
> > did after I made the biodiesel.
> > > Remember that I reprocessed the biodiesel a second time and got
> no
> > glycerine fall out indicating that all the product had reacted.
> > > I also did the share test and got a clear separation.
> > >
> > > I'm fairly sure at this stage that my problem is that too
> vigorous
> > pumping produces mayonnaise even if the biodiesel has reacted
> fully.
> > >
> > > I am going to try another 50 litre batch and I will use a
> > motorised stirrer this time.
> > > Has anybody got any idea about the diameter of impellor I should
> > use and what rpm to use?
> > > I'm going to use a 200 litre plastic barrel to do the washing.
> > >
> > > Thanks everybody again for the help/suggestions.
> > >
> > > Dermot
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: 02 September 2004 10:58
> > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
> > >
> > > But isnt the mixing period long enough? Say you mix for a whole
> > day would it still be uneven?
> > > What im really asking is this caused because of mechanical
> factors
> > or because a chemical reaction takes place, too much methroxide
> > exposed to too little oil...
> > > Just trying to get a better understanding of things.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your time
> > >
> > > -- original message --
> > > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
> > > From: bioveging <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Date: 01st September 2004 7:9:3
> > >
> > > The idea of methoxide mixing is to introduce it at a rythm that
> > will
> > > ensure even distribution throughout, so if you jet it all in at
> > once
> > > it might not get evenly distributed and that might leave some oil
> > > unreacted, IMO.
> > >
> > > L.
> > >
> > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Greg Harbican"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > What about when you first mix the methoxide with the veggie
> oil,
> > > is there such a thing as " mixing them to violently " because of
> > > having to powerful a pump?
> > > >
> > > > Greg H.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: dermot
> > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 07:03
> > > > Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think, as you rightly suggest, that my pump is too powerful
> > > and that the
> > > > mixing is too violent.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for you input.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Dermot
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: bioveging [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Sent: 01 September 2004 02:46
> > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Pump Washing of biodiesel
> > > >
> > > > OK, I am no pro at this but even I can see a couple of
> points.
> > > Why
> > > > bring it up to 130C ? Did it need dewatering or was it just a
> > > > precaution? A sample test in a saucepan brought up to temp
> > would
> > > > have confirmed it one way or the other.
> > > > I have made BD using some really crappy WVO which titrated at
> > > > 10gr/liter and washed it using a paint stirrer and it tunred
> > out
> > > OK.
> > > > The procesing temp is too high in your case.65C will boil
> off
> > the
> > > > methanol which goes vapour at about 64C. Your processing temp
> > > should
> > > > not be over 55C (130F). Too high or too low will result in
> poor
> > > end
> > > > product.( I know, I've done it)
> > > > 2HP pump huh? Wow ! Bet that thing hums huh? Might be a bit
> too
> > > much
> > > > for such a small amount though, although someone else will
> have
> > > to
> > > > comment of that as I am not in the know on it. There has been
> > > talk
> > > > of a 1/2 HP pump for 200gal (757liter) going for half an
> hour
> > and
> > > > oing the job.
> > > > Are you using a good scale? How about PH measuring method?
> All
> > > > potential variables that can cause trouble.
> > > > I am thinking though that your biggest problem had to do
> with
> > the
> > > > processing temperature being too high causing a loss of
> > methanol.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, that is only mytake on it, maybe someone with more
> > > > experience can be more helpful
> > > >
> > > > L.
> > > >
> > > > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "dermot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > > > I would appreciate any suggestions or help from people who
> > have
> > > > experience
> > > > > with washing biodiesel by using a pump. I have tried
> > > > unsuccessfully to do it
> > > > > and have ended up with about 50% mayonnaise.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's what I did:
> > > > >
> > > > > I heated the used oil, which was over a year old, to 130
> > > degrees
> > > > centigrade
> > > > > for over an hour to make sure there was no water present. I
> > > then
> > > > took a
> > > > > sample and allowed it to cool before titrating it.
> > > > > I got a titration reading of around 2.7. I did the
> titration
> > > three
> > > > times and
> > > > > it was always around this figure. I added 4 grams to this
> > > figure
> > > > and made a
> > > > > few one litre test batches mixing 6.7 grams of lye to the
> > > > methanol. I used
> > > > > 22% methanol (220 ml) in order to ensure a complete
> reaction.
> > > > >
> > > > > I made sure that the lye mixed completely with the
> methanol.
> > > When
> > > > I mixed
> > > > > the methoxide with the wvo I got a very good separation and
> > > > everything
> > > > > seemed fine.
> > > > > I then siphoned off the top layer of biodiesel and added an
> > > equal
> > > > amount of
> > > > > water to it. I shook it about 15 times and I got a good
> > > > separation within
> > > > > seconds and after maybe an hour I had almost completely
> clean
> > > > biodiesel on
> > > > > top and white coloured water underneath. There was no
> middle
> > > > layer. After a
> > > > > few days I siphoned off the washed biodiesel and washed it
> a
> > > few
> > > > more times.
> > > > > Same result, perfect separation after a few hours and it
> > > separated
> > > > quite
> > > > > quickly initially. I will call this sample "A".
> > > > >
> > > > > I then took another litre sample of the unwashed biodiesel
> > and
> > > ran
> > > > it
> > > > > through the whole process again to see if I had a complete
> > > > reaction. I
> > > > > titrated it but it immediately turned purple so I used the
> > > figure
> > > > of 4 grams
> > > > > of lye to mix with the 220 ml of methanol. I mixed the
> > > methoxide
> > > > and
> > > > > biodiesel thoroughly and was pleased to see that I got no
> > > > separation,
> > > > > indicating that there had been a complete reaction the
> first
> > > > time. I washed
> > > > > it again and got good separation very quickly. So far so
> > good.
> > > > >
> > > > > I felt confident enough now to do my first large batch in
> my
> > > > processor. By
> > > > > large I mean 50 litres.
> > > > > My processor is an old discarded plastic tractor mounted
> > spray
> > > > tank. It is
> > > > > rectangular in shape but has a slight cone shaped bottom. I
> > > use a
> > > > pump mixer
> > > > > to pump the contents from the bottom of the tank to the top
> > > where
> > > > I have a
> > > > > three quarter inch pipe connected to a wand which has
> about
> > 40
> > > > small holes
> > > > > drilled to enable good mixing. This wand is submerged near
> he
> > > > bottom of the
> > > > > tank. The pump is a sliding vane type and is powered by a 2
> > > > horsepower motor
> > > > > running at 1750 rpm.
> > > > >
> > > > > I heated the wvo in a separate heater tank using a butane
> > > burner
> > > > and brought
> > > > > it up to 65 degrees centigrade. I then transferred it by
> pump
> > > to
> > > > the
> > > > > reaction vessel and turned on my pump. I then gradually
> added
> > > the
> > > > methoxide
> > > > > mixture (at room temp) to the pump inlet and mixed away for
> > > about
> > > > an hour to
> > > > > ensure good mixing. I have the reactor tank well insulated
> so
> > > the
> > > > > temperature didn't drop below 55 degrees centigrade during
> > the
> > > > reaction time
> > > > > of one hour.
> > > > >
> > > > > Next morning I saw that everything went very well. I had
> > good
> > > > separation
> > > > > and the glycerine had fallen to the bottom and was liquid,
> > > just as
> > > > the trial
> > > > > batches had been, so it was easy to draw off the glycerine.
> > > > > I drew off a pint of biodiesel and did the wash test by
> > > shaking it
> > > > > vigorously for about ten shakes. I got good separation
> almost
> > > > immediately
> > > > > and it cleared to lovely biodiesel and milky water in a few
> > > > minutes. I
> > > > > drained off the water and let the biodiesel air dry for a
> few
> > > days
> > > > when it
> > > > > turned the nice clear straw yellow. Call this sample "B".
> > > > >
> > > > > I was happy that I had made good biodiesel so I decided to
> > pump
> > > > wash the
> > > > > biodiesel in the reaction vessel. I added to the
> > approximately
> > > 50
> > > > litres of
> > > > > biodiesel about 30 litres of water and circulated it
> through
> > > the
> > > > processor
> > > > > for about half an hour. The result was mayonnaise. I let it
> > > settle
> > > > for a day
> > > > > and then drained off the milky white water. The only
> problem
> > > was
> > > > that before
> > > > > long I realised that most of the mixture was at this stage
> > > > mayonnaise so I
> > > > > stopped draining off the lower layer. What was left of the
> > > mixture
> > > > (about 20
> > > > > litres) I put into a plastic carboy and went on holidays
> for
> > a
> > > > week. When I
> > > > > came back I had three layers; the top 30 percent was
> > > biodiesel, a
> > > > large
> > > > > middle layer of mayonnaise about 60 per cent and a bottom
> > > layer of
> > > > slightly
> > > > > darker mayonnaise.
> > > > >
> > > > > I then went back to my two samples "A" and "B" which I was
> > > happy
> > > > was good
> > > > > biodiesel and performed the wash test on them yet again but
> > > this
> > > > time very
> > > > > vigorously and for about five minutes each. I was trying to
> > > > simulate the
> > > > > mixing that occurred in the pump mixing. No matter how
> hard I
> > > > shook I still
> > > > > got good separation on BOTH samples.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would seem to me that the initial wash has got to be
> quite
> > > > gentle even
> > > > > with well made biodiesel and that subsequent washes can
> then
> > > be as
> > > > violent
> > > > > as you like and you will still get good separation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Before I try another batch I would appreciate any comments
> > from
> > > > anybody who
> > > > > has tried this washing method. I'm obviously doing
> something
> > > wrong
> > > > or else
> > > > > pump mixing doesn't work.
> > > > > Sorry for being so long winded but I think in order to get
> > good
> > > > advice you
> > > > > need as complete a picture of what I did as possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards
> > > > >
> > > > > Dermot
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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