If Iceland has no ability to produce a fuel (their growing season and climate isn't ideal for biofuels), and if they can generate electricity in a clean renewable manner, electrolyse hydrogen, compress it, and run vehicles on it, at a cost that won't bankrupt the citizen or the country, than by all means, go for it. North America doesn't meet these caviats. But under no circumstances should anyone think that the process is cheap, or efficient. It just may be the only option they are left with.
Here in the US, electricity is not cheap, plentiful, or green enough to produce hydrogen in a sustainable manner. The other source of hydrogen is fossil fuels, which is the source of hydrogen in our existing market. 60 mpg (GGE) is a doable target near term, using (bio)diesel and (bio)diesel hybrid electrics, in a 4 passenger $15k - $25k car. 80 mpg (GGE) is an admirable target that I support as a goal. 100 mpg is a pipedream for the foreseeable future. www.green-trust.org = = = Original message = = = > Steve Spence wrote: > It's my belief that "Cd 0.26, 0-60 mph in 8.2 s, 114 mpg-equivalent > with fuel cell)." is unmitigated bull fertilizer. I would really > like to see their calculations proving that "114 mpg-equivalent" ..... > > It would be fun to compare a 50 mpg biofueled (at $3 / GGE) vw > jetta diesel with a hydrogen fuel cell electric equivalent. I'm > betting the fuel cell vehicle will come in 3x higher in energy > costs, and 2x higher in sticker price, unless tax subsidised. Personally I would like to see vehicle efficiencies increased as referred to in the book below and increased use of renewable domestic energy in a sustainable manor. Is there something wrong with Iceland substituting renewable domestic hydrogen for imported hydrocarbon fossil fuel products or a wind or solar or carbohydrate economy doing it elsewhere ? Steve Spence wrote: At $10 / GGE equivalent, I just bet buyers will be lining up to get their fill ....... MH wrote: Did you see that in the articles A couple more regarding renewable hydrogen -- Iceland Says 'Filler Up' With Hydrogen May 19, 2003 Source: Iceland Consulate General First Public Hydrogen Filling Station in Iceland is Historic Milestone Toward Hydrogen Economy http://www.hydrogennow.org/HNews/PressReleases/IcelandConsulate1.htm "Iceland was chosen for the project because 72 percent of its energy usage is generated from renewable sources, mainly geothermal or hydropower." "Iceland's abundance of sustainable hydroelectric and geothermal energy also means the process of electrolyzing water molecules is less costly." "The cost of hydrogen is expected to be comparable with that of gasoline once hydrogen passenger vehicles become commonplace." [more] Will hydrogen from water soon run your car? By Tim Bradner Alaska Journal of Commerce Sep 13, 2004 http://www.alaskajournal.com/stories/091304/loc_20040913016.shtml "Robertson estimates he can break the hydrogen out of the water and produce a kilogram of hydrogen, which has an energy content roughly equal to a gallon of gasoline, using about 55 kilowatt hours of electricity. If each kilowatt hour costs 3 cents, it means the approximate cost of making hydrogen is about $1.65 per kilogram, the equivalent to a gallon of gasoline. That's just the raw cost of making the hydrogen, Robertson admits. Capital and operating costs must be added. Still, Robertson believes the total cost of producing the equivalent of a gallon of gasoline in the form of hydrogen will be about on par with a premium grade of gasoline, about $2.11 per gallon in the [U.S.] Pacific Northwest today." [more] > > > Steve Spence wrote: > > > At $10 / GGE equivalent, I just bet buyers will be lining up to get their > > > fill ....... > > MH wrote: > > Did you see that in the articles > > anyway that's one way of thinking about it > > another is a comparison of today's SUV using > > gasoline @ $2 US gallon to a ultralight SUV > > given your figure "$10 / GGE equivalent" > > with a concept vehicle such as: > > > > "2000 Hypercar Revolution show car that mocks up a > > midsize SUV virtual design (857 kg, 5 seats, by-wire, > > Cd 0.26, 0~60 mph in 8.2 s, 114 mpg-equivalent with fuel cell)." > > page 61, Winning the Oil Endgame - http://www.oilendgame.com > > > > That's about 5x the fuel economy of > > its 2000 gasoline SUV counterpart > > with similar annual fuel costs. <SNIP> > > Their are other automotive examples in the book*: > > > > pg. 46 A typical recent-year production car gets about > > 28 EPA adjusted mpg, or 8.4 liters of fuel per 100 km, > > on level city streets. (To convert between > > miles per U.S. gallon [mpg] and L/100 km, > > divide 235.2 by the other.) > > > > pg. 48 Figure 9: Two mild hybrids competing with > > the full-hybrid Toyota Prius in the U.S. > > L: 2-seat Honda Insight, 59~64 mpg. > > R: The reportedly profitable 5-seat Honda Civic Hybrid, 49 mpg, > > ~10% share of Civic market. > > Insight~s successor might resemble the 2003 carbon-fiber concept > > IMAS~ 698 kg, Cd 0.20, 94 mpg on the Japanese 10/15 cycle. > > > > pg. 50 Figure 10: Three 2000 PNGV diesel-hybrid > > midsize concept sedans and their gasoline-equivalent mpg L to R: > > GM Precept (1,176 kg, Cd 0.163, 80 mpg), > > Ford Prodigy (1,083 kg, Cd 0.20, 70 mpg), and > > Dodge ESX3 (polymer body, 1,021 kg, Cd 0.22, 72 mpg). > > Of their efficiency gains, totaling 2.7~3.1 vs.the > > 26-mpg Taurus-class base vehicle, > > > > pg. 55 Figure 13: Four composite concept cars: From L~R, they are: > > Daihatsu 2003 2+(2)-seat UFE-II hybrid (569 kg, carbon-fiber, Cd 0.19, > > 141 mpg on Japanese 10/15 cycle, by-wire); > > 1996 4-seat Coup~ (1,080 kg including 320 kg/25 kWh NaNiCl batteries, > > pure-electric, 100-mi range with a/c on, 12~20 DC kWh/100 km, > > 114~190 mpg-equivalent) developed by Horlacher in Switzerland > > for Pantila in Thailand; > > BMW 1999 Z22 (~20 body parts, ~1,100 kg [~30% weight cut] via carbon and > > other composites and light metals, 39 mpg, by-wire); > > VW 2001 ~Ein-Liter-Auto~ 2-seat tandem 1-cylinder diesel > > (carbon fiber, 290 kg, Cd 0.159, 8.5 hp, 74 mph, 238 mpg). > > (A 1990 carbon/aramid 2-seat Swiss electric car weighed just 230 kg > > without batteries.) > > > > *With photos and footnotes. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- <SNIP> > > > > Solar hydrogen - energy of the future > > > > 26 August 2004 > > > > http://www.unsw.edu.au/news/adv/articles/2004/aug/Solar_hydrogen.html > > > > <SNIP> > > > > New Process Could Help Make Hydrogen Fuel Affordable > > > > Stephanie Peatling in Sydney for National Geographic News > > > > August 27, 2004 > > > > > > > > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/08/0827_040827_hydrogen_energy.html > > > > <SNIP> _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___________________________________________________________ Sent by ePrompter, the premier email notification software. 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