I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late 90's, as a engine control systems engineer.
It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative. A pretty cool and functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with reasonable power. I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit higher on the EPA test cycles. The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust aftertreatment. The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high for a marketable car. To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum, magnesium, and titanium components everywhere. Titanium lugnuts? $200 each. Magnesium wheels? $$$$ I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given economies of scale. Fun stuff to play with, though. So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us. I do agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S. taxpayer. IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3 automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'. -- RobT -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:19 AM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel Hello Ted >I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid >electric/biodiesel vehicles. Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics? http://www.econogics.com/ >I read that such products were >manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped. Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush administration in favour of the "Freedom Car". The technology, paid for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests. Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out: Driving In Circles http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution": http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/000031.html See PNGV about halfway down: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html Do diesels have a future? There's this, from a post in one of those threads: >During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S. >auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid >concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a >New Generation of Vehicle." Some were more realistic >than others, but all had high mileages, and all were >unveiled 1998-2001. Interesting that as soon as our >current President took office, this initiative left >the headlines. But there's also this, from Doyle: >Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on >its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House >"partnerships" dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion >and political cover, not actual clean cars. > >During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a >company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s, >rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody "skateboard" >called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy >would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers, >and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy >Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.), >were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of >one federal "supercar" program and the creation of another. Being >terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with >Detroit known as the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles" >(PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its >place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on >fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, "Freedom Car." >However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's "supercar" >program shows. > >At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared >the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM's CEO >at the time, Jack Smith, said the efficiency gains to come from the >new venture would amount to "nothing less than a major, even >radical, breakthrough." A whole new class of car would follow, he >assured his listeners. Sold to Congress as a way to make the Big >Three competitive with the Japanese, PNGV became the perfect >political tool to keep Congress from moving to improve fuel economy, >to tout as the industry's global warming fighter, and to help >undermine California's electric vehicle program. > >Meanwhile, as Detroit and Washington became comfortable in their >new, 10-year research venture, the Japanese were making real >improvements... -- From: Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers There's also this: >PNGV funds were available only to American companies. Recipients >agreed to unveil a concept car by 2000, a preproduction prototype by >2004 and be in full production by 2010. All three, Ford, GM and >DaimlerChrysler introduced concept cars in early 2000. And there >development stopped. Why? Because the American car companies refused >to commercialize a car they would initially lose money on, even if >the losses would be temporary. > >Daimler/Chrysler, for example, announced in 2000 that it would not >commercialize its diesel hybrid (ESX3) because it cost $7,500 more >to make than their comparable gasoline powered car, a Dodge >Intrepid. As late as April 2002 General Motors' CEO and President G. >Richard Wagoner Jr. told Business Week, "How will the economics of >hybrids ever match that of the internal combustion engine? We can't >afford to subsidize them." -- From: A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333 And this, from "Fool Cells": "Since 1973, oil imports have doubled, rising from six million barrels per day (BPD) to nearly 12 million BPD -- climbing to nearly 60 percent of supply. Cars and trucks alone account for the lion's share of this dependency, about 8 million BPD. Last year the nation paid $106 billion for imported oil -- that works out to about $200,000 leaving the country every minute. Since the '70s, America has sent more than one trillion dollars to oil exporting countries -- money that might have gone to new American businesses and new jobs." So who exactly is one to blame for that - OPEC (the usual American choice) or Detroit? See: "Who gets what from imported oil?" http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/OPECscut.pdf >My thinking is that excluding Dino Fuel entirely is the way to go, >without the difficutly of producing hydrogen fuel cells as well. There's been an ongoing and as-yet unresolved discussion here and elsewhere whether hybrids have much or any advantage over a VW Golf running on 100% biodiesel, and there doesn't seem to be much in it. Best wishes Keith >1: What exists already in this area? >2: Is anyone in the United States interested in collaborating on this project? > >Ted De Barbieri _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
