Hello Rob
I worked on the Ford P2000 DIATA diesel hybrid for a few years in the late
90's, as a engine control systems engineer.
It was a research vehicle, part of the PNGV initiative. A pretty cool and
functional hybrid -- a large 4-door car (larger inside than a Taurus) with
reasonable power. I got around 60-70 mpg in real-world driving, a bit
higher on the EPA test cycles.
The engine and hybrid system were all pretty close to currently
in-production stuff, with the exception of batteries and exhaust
aftertreatment. The cost of the vehicle, though, was way high, much to high
for a marketable car.
To get the weight down to 2000 lbs curb weight, we had expensive aluminum,
magnesium, and titanium components everywhere. Titanium lugnuts? $200
each. Magnesium wheels? $$$$
I doubt it could have been produced for less than $50,000 US, even given
economies of scale.
They were succeeding in bring the prices down to near-marketability
when the program was axed. I'm not sure about Ford's Prodigy, but the
Dodge ESX3 PNGV diesel hybrid got down to about $27,500 by early 2000.
http://www.detnews.com/2000/autos/0002/23/02230070.htm
DaimlerChrysler cut the "cost penalty" from $60,000 down to $7,500.
GM predicted that it would have production prototypes ready in 2004,
with cars for sale to follow.
Fun stuff to play with, though.
Play? "It is possible to produce a mid-size family sedan that gets 80
miles per gallon. It won't be cheap," said a Washington Post article
on PNGV in 2001. What does cheap mean? As cheap as oil imports to the
US are today, very much of which is wasted? Fuel economy hasn't
improved in 20 years or more in the US, what's the cost of that
exactly? An impossible dream? PNGV shows it's not impossible at all,
even in the US.
So, I don't think there is a magic vehicle being hidden from us.
Not magic, but it's certainly been buried and it shouldn't have been.
Did you read these?
Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html
Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html
See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/000031.html
Where's the technology now? It was intended to percolate into the
general technology base in the US, they said it was doing exactly
that, and instead it vanished. "All told, of the 129 technology
achievements and innovations arising from the Precept program, 47 of
them are global industry firsts and about 75 percent have some sort
of potential core product application. Nearly 40 of those
achievements and innovations are in the propulsion system alone."
Shelved. And you guys buy Insights and Prius's instead like a bunch
of mugs.
A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333
From one PNGV program report in 2000:
Daimler Chrysler's Jim Holden said he drove to the press conference
in a new Dodge Durango SUV with a hybrid gas electric power train
that is 20 percent more fuel efficient than the conventional
Durango. GM sells about 20,000 Durangos a year, Holden said, and
"with a little bit of help on the tax side," the hybrid Durango
could be "on the road in the very near term." The Big Three want
Congress to pass legislation supported by the White House that would
give a tax credit of up to $4,000 to consumers who buy these new,
fuel efficient vehicles.
But the tax credits go to SUVs. "Unfortunately, Congress has refused
to act on our package of consumer tax credits -- including credits of
up to $4,000 for consumers to purchase the next generation of fuel
efficient vehicles." - GM, 10/20/2000
I do
agree, though, that that was a heck of an expensive program for the U.S.
taxpayer.
As expensive as today's oil consumption is proving to be, in so many
different ways? And not just for the US taxpayer either.
IIRC, under PNGV the US gave $70 million to each of the big 3
automakers to come up with these 'possible vehicles'.
More than that I think.
Funny how there's less and less to be seen about these vehicles and
the PNGV program. I keep having to change/kill the links on our
section on them at Journey to Forever. For instance, a new one, enter
"pngv" at NREL's search page and you get this message (note the url):
http://search.nrel.gov/go_away.html
This page is intentionally blank.
LOL!
I did the search after finding that NREL's pages on PNGV had vanished.
Best wishes
Keith
-- RobT
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 2:19 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Hybrid Diesel
Hello Ted
>I'm interested in organizing a coalition around hybrid
>electric/biodiesel vehicles.
Have you visited Darryl McMahon's website, Ecogenics?
http://www.econogics.com/
>I read that such products were
>manufactured early in the hybrid process, but later scrapped.
Do you mean PNGV? The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles
project started by Al Gore. In collaboration with government the Big
Three in Detroit each developed diesel-electric hybrids with fuel
consumption of about 80mpg and were getting costs down to near
marketability when the project was scrapped by the Bush
administration in favour of the "Freedom Car". The technology, paid
for with taxpayers' dollars, got stashed away in the vaults where
they keep useful technology that might not be in their interests.
Sorry to be cynical about it, but check these out:
Driving In Circles
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg10943.html
Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg20667.html
See also the Mokhiber-Weissman review of Jack Doyle's book, "Taken
for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Pollution":
http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2000/000031.html
See PNGV about halfway down:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html
Do diesels have a future?
There's this, from a post in one of those threads:
>During the Clinton Administration, all the major U.S.
>auto manufacturers developed diesel-electric hybrid
>concept vehicles, in line with the "Partnership for a
>New Generation of Vehicle." Some were more realistic
>than others, but all had high mileages, and all were
>unveiled 1998-2001. Interesting that as soon as our
>current President took office, this initiative left
>the headlines.
But there's also this, from Doyle:
>Bush's proposal to provide for clean cars -- which is laudable on
>its face -- is but the latest in a long line of Detroit-White House
>"partnerships" dating to the Nixon-era that only provide diversion
>and political cover, not actual clean cars.
>
>During the annual parade of auto shows in 2002, General Motors, a
>company which has lost 25 points of market share since the '50s,
>rolled out a futuristic-looking automotive underbody "skateboard"
>called Autonomy. Someday -- GM didn't say exactly when -- Autonomy
>would be crammed full of hydrogen-powered fuel cells and computers,
>and smog would end. A few days after GM's show, U.S. Energy
>Secretary of Energy, Spencer Abraham, and Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.),
>were on hand with GM and DaimlerChrysler to announce the death of
>one federal "supercar" program and the creation of another. Being
>terminated was a Clinton-era program -- a 10-year joint venture with
>Detroit known as the "Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles"
>(PNGV) that was supposed to produce an 80 mpg family car. In its
>place, the Bush administration substituted a program focused not on
>fuel-efficiency but on hydrogen fuel-cell technology, "Freedom Car."
>However, most of these ventures go nowhere, as Clinton's "supercar"
>program shows.
>
>At its September 1993 White House unveiling, Bill Clinton compared
>the PNGV to the Apollo project that put a man on the moon. GM's CEO
>at the time, Jack Smith, said the efficiency gains to come from the
>new venture would amount to "nothing less than a major, even
>radical, breakthrough." A whole new class of car would follow, he
>assured his listeners. Sold to Congress as a way to make the Big
>Three competitive with the Japanese, PNGV became the perfect
>political tool to keep Congress from moving to improve fuel economy,
>to tout as the industry's global warming fighter, and to help
>undermine California's electric vehicle program.
>
>Meanwhile, as Detroit and Washington became comfortable in their
>new, 10-year research venture, the Japanese were making real
>improvements...
-- From: Fool Cells - How Detroit Plays Americans For A Bunch Of Suckers
There's also this:
>PNGV funds were available only to American companies. Recipients
>agreed to unveil a concept car by 2000, a preproduction prototype by
>2004 and be in full production by 2010. All three, Ford, GM and
>DaimlerChrysler introduced concept cars in early 2000. And there
>development stopped. Why? Because the American car companies refused
>to commercialize a car they would initially lose money on, even if
>the losses would be temporary.
>
>Daimler/Chrysler, for example, announced in 2000 that it would not
>commercialize its diesel hybrid (ESX3) because it cost $7,500 more
>to make than their comparable gasoline powered car, a Dodge
>Intrepid. As late as April 2002 General Motors' CEO and President G.
>Richard Wagoner Jr. told Business Week, "How will the economics of
>hybrids ever match that of the internal combustion engine? We can't
>afford to subsidize them."
-- From: A Tale of Two Countries, by David Morris
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17333
And this, from "Fool Cells": "Since 1973, oil imports have doubled,
rising from six million barrels per day (BPD) to nearly 12 million
BPD -- climbing to nearly 60 percent of supply. Cars and trucks alone
account for the lion's share of this dependency, about 8 million BPD.
Last year the nation paid $106 billion for imported oil -- that works
out to about $200,000 leaving the country every minute. Since the
'70s, America has sent more than one trillion dollars to oil
exporting countries -- money that might have gone to new American
businesses and new jobs."
So who exactly is one to blame for that - OPEC (the usual American
choice) or Detroit? See:
"Who gets what from imported oil?"
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/OPECscut.pdf
>My thinking is that excluding Dino Fuel entirely is the way to go,
>without the difficutly of producing hydrogen fuel cells as well.
There's been an ongoing and as-yet unresolved discussion here and
elsewhere whether hybrids have much or any advantage over a VW Golf
running on 100% biodiesel, and there doesn't seem to be much in it.
Best wishes
Keith
>1: What exists already in this area?
>2: Is anyone in the United States interested in collaborating on this
project?
>
>Ted De Barbieri
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