Kieth:
Keith
As you often do, you have over-reacted here.
Have I really.
Most BD'ers on this list admit to their limited knowledge and
skills when they join the list. They then get a certain amount
of advice from web sources and start to build. Have you noticed
that no two processors are alike?
Yes I have noticed that, now you come to mention it. I've even
noticed that my own three processors aren't alike. When people write
to me as they quite often do asking for engineering designs and
specifications for the processors at our website I tell them they're
made of junk and no two piles of junk are alike either. I've been
telling them that for years.
We all have access to different
materials and try to mix and match to approximate the prototype.
Alternatively, we think or know where an improvement can be included.
So the processors evolve either by serendipity, accident or design.
Not quite so. If you compare the reactors featured at our site now
with those of five years ago what you'll see rather than serendipity
or accident is indeed design, real evolution and development. A major
reason for that is that people have been encouraged to think for
themselves and to share their thoughts, free of the crippling
inhibition of believing that you have to be a professional to get it
(a) right and (b) safe - an inhibition that your post encouraged, no
matter how you try to rationalise it.
Would you say that Open Source software evolved either by
serendipity, accident or design?
also see in-line comments.
On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:14:47 -0400, Keith Addison
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Ray(pl)
Ray J
I would agree with your visual acuity. However, the key to any
chemical lab work is that the worker is not to be exposed to the
process fumes. It is air pollution in concentrated form. Not to
be disrespectful, but you are viewing the low-budget handiwork of
untrained mechanics (for the most part). If there are any who made
such displays in spite of being professionals then they should be
ashamed.
With all due respect, DIY handiworkers are not necessarily either
dumb or hamfisted,
I did not say nor suggest that they were either dumb or hamfisted
You didn't use those words.
they can be very skilled and often are,
I did not say or suggest that they could not be
Oh come off it! What else could this possibly mean? "... the
low-budget handiwork of untrained mechanics (for the most part)..."
And what's the alleged result? It's dangerous.
SNIP >
Please don't try to undo it. A false sense of helplessness and
dependence, deliberately promoted by the powers-that-be, and the
grievous deskilling and diseducation that have accompanied it, are
a major barrier standing between humans and their rightful future.
I was not trying to undo anything,
Not intentionally perhaps, but your squirming about it like this
doesn't help a lot.
I was simply admonishing Ray J
to avoid the fumes by using closed and vented processors and wash
tanks, and to keep in mind that these sites are populated, for the
most part, by well intentioned, but not necessarily appropriately
educated people.
Appropriately educated = trained professionals, according to you, and
without the "appropriate" training what we have is processing
equipment developed by accident and it's dangerous, acording to you.
The grand sum of knowledge in the group is
probably way more than that required to make biodeisel successfully.
Of course it is. You conveniently lose sight of the fact that most
members here, and indeed most posters here, are not in fact newcomers
who've just joined the list with limited knowledge and experience as
you say.
Those individuals who have all the training and knowledge required
to innovate in the field are doing just that, for their own or other
companies, and for the most part they are not sharing.
You just can't see it can you? In order to innovate in the field you
have to have all the training and knowledge required. Sorry, the
cutting edge of biofuels development is not to be found in the big
companies that don't share. It's to be found right here, and the
progress in technology development of the last five years proves it.
The reason a professional engineer might sneer at a bamboo fence,
might not even realise that you can make excellent fences with
bamboo, is that appropriate technology just doesn't look kosher
enough. Which is what the "industry" thinks of us and our processors.
Before you put your foot in it again I suggest you give this a
careful read:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#noyes
Actually it was rather worse than that. You'll find more details
about halfway down:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51033.html
[biofuels-biz] EPA "guidelines" - was Re: [biofuel] Request
It's not an isolated case, nor confined to the US (though it seems to
be worse there).
Especially harmful are the methanol and methoxide (methanol and
sodium hydroxide combined).
Yes they're harmful, but they're probably not as harmful as you're
making out, and THEY'RE EASILY AVOIDED -
Ray J, the original poster here, stated that when he transfered
the BD to his wash tank he was exposed to choking irritating fumes.
Please try to get your facts straight. The original poster was Todd
Hershberger, and this is what he said:
My other question is. When I pumped the biodiesel from the reactor
to the wash tank, there was a noxious smell from the fuel coming out
of the the 55 gallon drum. It was kind of choking and eye
imitating. I didn't breathe much of it. The fuel was still warm
coming out after 24 hours of settling.
A small amount of methanol fumes produced more by splashing than by
heat, and plenty of room to back off quickly. Not quite the picture
you're trying to paint, is it?
You 'believe' that 'probably' the exposure was too small to worry about.
Stop muddying the waters. I didn't say "believe", so don't quote me
as saying it. I wasn't referring to Todd's exposure but to your
statement, which was general: "Especially harmful are the methanol
and methoxide..." The post I referred you to is also general: "For
some perspective on methanol toxicity..." All that was clear and
unambiguous, and remains so.
I dissagree. The actual dosage in the nose and lungs can be quite high
and will only be diluted as it disolves in the fluids of the body, but
in the nose, throat and lungs damage can be done.
You don't even know for sure that it was methanol. I do indeed doubt
that the dosage Todd received was "quite high", and so does he: he
said he didn't breathe much. You don't have to think about it, when
you get a hint of something acrid in your nose you flinch back, it's
a reflex. In this situation, with the small proportion of methanol
left in the biodiesel, and with the temperature nothing more than
"still warm" after 24 hours' settling, what fumes could come out of
the top of an open wash tank on transfer is not a large amount and
easy to step back from (and easy to prevent, even without the
"appropriate education" and "all the training and knowledge
required"). He got a whiff, that's all, improbable that it got as far
as the lungs, or even the throat. You were exaggerating then and
you're exaggerating now, and you'll probably insist on exaggerating
in your response, if any.
When you disagree with people you say they're over-reacting? You're
the one who's over-reacting, now and in the first place.
Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
as has been pointed out here and elsewhere by many people,
including me, again, yesterday, in this thread, here:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/2
00 5-August/002755.html
Or:
http://snipurl.com/h09t
[Biofuel] Re: emulsion wash test
Best wishes
Keith
I think (hope) that the pics you see
of open wash tanks are (and should be labelled) for graphic
demonstration only.
I believe that the first and second washes should be in closed/vented
systems for sure, when methanol and methoxide residuals are a
definite threat. The drying step should be relatively innocuous
and is much easier in an open container.
Ray
On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:50:04 -0400, Ray J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
thats funny, i have been studying biodiesel processors on the
net for over a year now and dont think i have hardly ever seen
a sealed wash tank... in fact most i see are open top drums....
<snip>
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