Yeah, I mean, the guys still alive. Lets not biodegrade him yet. On 6/1/06, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith > > I think bio-degrading Keith is a bit harsh. I believe if you just have a > word with him that will suffice. > > > > > Appal Energy wrote: > > >Well..., > > > >I think anything can compost/bio-degrade Keith, even pig iron and Exxon > >Valdez dropping. > > > >And no doubt the ratio of roughage to glyc cocktail certainly is paramount. > > > >But how many people hear the word compost, dump tonnage into a pile, and > >expect miracles without maintenance or moderation? > > > >This is largely what I believe biodieselers do..., just dump and make > >another batch and dump again, until they have a stew pit that "isn't > >working." > > > >As for methanol, you just won't find me a very big proponent of tossing > >something that can contribute to surface and ground water contamination. > > > >I am rather fond of the belief of greens going the extra mile rather > >when feasible/achievable. Pour-and-go biodiesel? Yes. Dump-and-go > >glycerol cocktail? Strong reservations and with fair reason. > > > >Did you not in your trials come up with a rough formulae/guidline as to > >ratios and time frames? That would certainly help on the middle-road. > > > >Todd Swearingen > > > > > >Keith Addison wrote: > > > > > > > >>>>>Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think > >>>>>this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>Tom, > >>> > >>>I don't believe they're actually composting it. But they think > >>>they're composting it. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>I also think I've composted it, and I'd definitely know. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>The methanol fraction is toxic > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>It's not toxic to the soil microlife nor to plants. > >> > >>... "Methanol is readily biodegradable in the environment under both > >>aerobic and anaerobic conditions (with and without oxygen) in a wide > >>variety of conditions. > >> > >>"Generally 80% of methanol in sewage systems is biodegraded within 5 days. > >> > >>"Methanol is a normal growth substrate for many soil microorganisms, > >>which completely degrade methanol to carbon dioxide and water. > >> > >>"Methanol is of low toxicity to aquatic and terrestrial organisms and > >>it is not bioaccumulated. (It's toxic mainly to humans and monkeys.) > >> > >>"Environmental effects due to exposure to methanol are unlikely. > >>Unless released in high concentrations, methanol would not be > >>expected to persist or bioaccumulate in the environment. Low levels > >>of release would not be expected to result in adverse environmental > >>effects." > >> > >>From "More about methanol" (with refs): > >>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth > >> > >>It certainly won't harm a compost pile. > >> > >>Anyway the methanol should be removed first. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>and the soap/oil fraction will smother almost everything. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>It depends how much of it you use. "It will need to be mixed > >>thoroughly with other materials so that the air and bacteria can get > >>at it, or it will just make a sticky mass -- mix thoroughly with dry, > >>"brown" materials, use in conjunction with other composting materials > >>as only a part of the overall mix." > >>-- Composting > >>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#compost > >> > >>It works. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>Jason & Katie, > >>> > >>>At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is > >>>to create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the > >>>amount of effort and infrastructure needed to refine the > >>>side-streams is phenomenal and beyond the reach of the average or > >>>above average home brewer. > >>> > >>>What you need are end products that can be disposed of without > >>>threat to the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and > >>>one possibilities and options, the suggestion would be to keep it > >>>simple. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>But Tom is finding values in the uses that are well exceeding the > >>price of the phosphoric acid needed for separation, including > >>enhanced composting. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get > >>>on the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the > >>>acid pre-treatment of high FFA oils. > >>> > >>>Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than > >>>useful, if not toxic, salts. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Potassium is harmful in excess. There are no chemicals involved in > >>the biodiesel processes we all use that are toxic to soil or plant > >>life. Separated FFA is a contact weed-killer but once composted it > >>will be benign, as with all the others, and composting also prevents > >>any potential excess problems, or well within reason anyway. Chemical > >>salts should not be added direct to the soil anyway, if you have them > >>always add them via the compost. Phosphoric acid, sulphuric acid and > >>hydrochloric acid can all be safely used for separation and the salts > >>used without adverse effects on compost, soil or plant life. If > >>you're using NaOH as the catalyst, decrease the proportion of > >>separated salts to other compost materials. > >> > >>Best > >> > >>Keith > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>Todd Swearingen > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Jason& Katie wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final > >>>>product in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is > >>>>also used as a mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table > >>>>salt (theyre about the same as far as toxicity goes, and it > >>>>increases potassium levels and total electrolytes in the human > >>>>body, not so bad i think) but it has many other uses in the medical > >>>>world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food > >>>>preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible > >>>>byproduct or should i keep looking? > >>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM > >>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Jason & Katie, > >>>>>I'm not sure what you mean when you say "clean the glycerine for > >>>>>compost". > >>>>>Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I think > >>>>>this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. > >>>>> I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD these > >>>>>days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of which > >>>>>70%, > >>>>>by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd > >>>>>like to > >>>>>control how much is added to my garden .... which has done just fine on > >>>>>pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses > >>>>>for > >>>>>the other components of the mix. > >>>>> > >>>>>I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as "muriatic acid") > >>>>>before I was able to locate phosphoric. > >>>>>I did a few small test batches and got good separation. > >>>>>The difference will be the type of mineral "salt" that will precipitate > >>>>>out. > >>>>>Ex: > >>>>>Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water > >>>>>HCl + NaOH ----> NaCL (table salt) + H2O > >>>>>The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? > >>>>> > >>>>>The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on top and > >>>>>the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom > >>>>>layer. > >>>>>The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. > >>>>>They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way of > >>>>>soil > >>>>>nutrients, but I have found that > >>>>>they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile ....... > >>>>>not > >>>>>only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. > >>>>> > >>>>>KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) > >>>>>is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate ..... > >>>>>valuable as fertilizer. > >>>>> > >>>>>The point is that different acids can be used to split the cocktail > >>>>>into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The > >>>>>difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. > >>>>> > >>>>>Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would take > >>>>>a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. > >>>>>Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the salt > >>>>>produced would have more value. > >>>>> > >>>>>***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I > >>>>>dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in water > >>>>>and > >>>>>add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to good > >>>>>use. > >>>>> > >>>>> Sorry to get so wordy, but your "goofy question" is part of a subject > >>>>>that is of great interest to me. > >>>>> The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff that > >>>>>brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others have > >>>>>called "waste products" is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the > >>>>>tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. > >>>>> Best of luck to you, > >>>>> Tom > >>>>> > >>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason& Katie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > >>>>>Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM > >>>>>Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric to > >>>>>>clean > >>>>>>glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i cant > >>>>>>find > >>>>>>any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right places? > >>>>>>has > >>>>>>anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Biofuel mailing list > >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >> > >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > >>messages): > >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Biofuel mailing list > >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >
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