Hi Bob; I said it before and I'll say it again. Who's gonna spend the money to scientifically prove something they cannot control, works? Just for this reason there isn't much to go on but testimony. However the corollary, someone with a lot of money, and who stands to lose a lot would see it as a good investment to publish information which makes herbs look bad, now that is a good possibility, vis big oil's spending on anti-global warming research and disinformation campaign. However much you may be able to shoot me down on this, I'll go ahead and say it; there is something sorta scientific we can say in this case. We rely on statistical information so heavily, sure a handful of bought testimonials are worthless but what about generations worth? What about a thousand years worth? It's not a double blind study but obviously something is up and people are on to it. If something is crap and is hyped up with bought and paid for testimonials, it's not gonna stand the test of time is it? Another example? Nobody has a scientific explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with anaesthetic. It's been known to work for a long time but nobody can explain it. Perhaps our science isn't good enough yet. Should we abandon accupuncture on this principle then? Joe bob allen wrote: Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence? Terry Dyck wrote:Hi Bob,Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by Northern American Natives for thousands of years.so? Ayurvedic doctors ofIndia have studied herbs for centuriesand they drink their urine, so what? and so have Chinese herbalpracticianers.they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what? Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining. but not as bad a willow bark salicin It canalso cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time. I have never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.uh, testimonial again. sorryTerry DyckFrom: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500 Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years of testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial. This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs have been "discovered" from an examination of traditional medicine. You can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example. http://www.phcog.org/ Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid, obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american indians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to the lining of the stomach. Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't survived scientific scrutiny. glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via placebo controlled studies. of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits. you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the information. Terry Dyck wrote:Hi Bob, Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between a short term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of testimonies? Terry DyckFrom: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500 you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence: "NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercoverinvestigationin which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though theproducerwas told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked, he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven "satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen, M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell yourproductto millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ " -- Bob Allen _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/_______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/_______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/_______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/_______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ |
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